arnoldo

Yeah, didn't Pharoah get a warning first? What is your point?

Sheshonq

A warning that someone is about to commit a heinous act?

Is that your defense?

If Hitler had warned all the Jews that they would be treated cruelly, would that warning somehow have excused Hitler or gotten him off the hook for his crimes?

10 seconds to review your posts for gaping holes. Consider it a wise investment.

makerowner

Exodus 4:21 (RSV) "And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go." (emphasis added)

Exodus 7:3-4 (RSV) "But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, Pharaoh will not listen to you; then I will lay my hand upon Egypt and bring forth my hosts, my people the sons of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment." (emphasis added)

Exodus 9:12 (RSV) "But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them; as the LORD had spoken to Moses." (emphasis added)

Exodus 10:1-2 (RSV) "Then the LORD said to Moses, 'Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them, and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your son's son how I have made sport of the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them; that you may know that I am the LORD.' " (emphasis added)

Exodus 10:20 (RSV) "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go." (emphasis added)

Exodus 10:27 (RSV) "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go." (emphasis added)

Exodus 11:10 (RSV) "Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh; and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the people of Israel go out of his land. " (emphasis added)

Are you beginning to see a trend here? God hardens Pharaoh's heart "that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your son's son how I have made sport of the Egyptians". Why should infants be killed because God wanted to show off? Do you consider that moral behaviour?

arnoldo

I suppose that ultimately since you have proven the God of the Bible doesn't exist then neither did Abraham. Perhaps Moses just made up the story about Abraham to justify stealing the land for the Caananites. No wait, you probably think that Moses is just a myth also, just like the prophet Daniel. George Orwell would be proud of your Newthink, Newspeak, revisionist history and use of language to delude yourself, congratulations. Since you have proven that Israel has no right to exist as a nation you have justified the next war to attempt to destroy Israel.
Shalom.

Johnny Skeptic

Please be advised that skeptics are merely replying to PRIOR assertions that are in the Bible. The Bible came first, not objections from skeptics.

Can you disprove deism?

Anyway, since I have successfully refuted many of your arguments, it is obvious that I have accepted the burden of reasonable proof and succeeded in reasonably proving my assertions.

I suggest that we get back to discussing the evidence. The partition of Palestine is a bona fide example of a self-fulfilled Bible prophecy. If Jewish and Palestinian history had been reversed, and Palestinians had been persecuted by Hitler and other parties instead of Jews, there is no way that the U.N. would have granted Palestinians control of Jerusalem and a grossly disproportionate amount of land per capita like the Jews got. That conclusively proves hands down that the Partition of Palestine was a self-fulfilled prophecy.

Yes, how about you? If you had been transported at birth back to China in 250 B.C., and were raised by Buddhists, and the community that you lived in was predominantly Buddhist, what would the odds have been that you would have heard about the God of the Bible? The correct answer is "zero." Today, what are the odds that a devout, Southern Bible Belt, fundamentalist Christian couple's son will become a fundamentalist Christian as compared with the odds of a son who is raised by Muslim parents in a remote region of Afghanistan becoming a fundamentalist Christian?

If the God of the Bible does not exist, what are the odds that a much lower percentage of elderly skeptics would become Christians than younger skeptics, and that a much larger percentage of younger skeptics would become Christians than elderly skeptics, and that a much smaller percentage of elderly Christians would become skeptics than younger Christians, and that a much larger percentage of younger Christians would become skeptics, all of which are the case today? The correct answer is 100% because it is well-known that elderly people are much less likely to change their worldviews than younger people are.

If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explain why humans have to do what God ought to be doing much of himself. Why would God frequently mimic the way that things would be if he did not exist, thereby needlessly causing doubt and confusion? No loving God would go out of his way to mimic the way that things would be if he did not exist. If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why the Gospel message was distributed entirely by humans. If God does exist, he is more concerned with HOW people hear about the Gospel message than he is with THAT they hear the Gospel message, and with mimicking the way that the Gospel message would be spread if he does not exist. No loving, rational God would ever act like that.

We have a similar case regarding the distribution of food. James says that if a man refuses to give food to a hungry person that his faith is dead, but God has refused to give food to millions of people who died of starvation. If God does not exist, that explains why all distribution of food is done by humans. If God does exist, then he is more concerned with HOW people get enough food to eat than he is with THAT people get enough food to eat, and with mimicking the way that food would be distributed if he does not exist. No loving, rational God would ever act like that.

Please answer this question: WHY DID GOD INSPIRE JAMES TO WRITE THAT IF A MAN REFUSES TO GIVE FOOD TO HUNGRY PEOPLE, HE IS VAIN, AND HIS FAITH IS DEAD?

If a loving God exists, there is no way that it could be predicted that every year, the percentage of women in the U.S. who are Christians would be a good deal higher than the percentage of men who are Christians, and that the percentage of elderly skeptics who become Christians would be much smaller than the percentage of younger skeptics who become Christians, and that the percentage of elderly Christians who become skeptics would be much lower than the percentage of younger Christians who become skeptics. If a loving God exists, the odds against those things being the way that they are are astronomical. If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why the primary factors that determine why people believe what they believe are geography, family, race, ethnicity, gender, age, and time period.

Obviously, your convenient "God frequently uses men and nations for his own purposes" argument is fraudulent, and is exactly what would be the case if he does not exist.

makerowner

Is there a form of Goodwin's law for Orwell? Seriously though, what evidence do you have for the existence of Abraham, Moses, or Daniel? Just the OT texts which date from hundreds of years after the supposed events. Moses, as described, contradicts archaeological fact, since the Exodus never happened. And you've been told this before, but the Hebrews were Canaanites.

Johnny Skeptic

But since the Bible is the claimant, it is no more up to me to disprove it than it is up to you to disprove deism. Can you disprove deism?

But you do not have any credible evidence that Moses wrote any of the Bible. Even if he did, you do not have any credible evidence that he was speaking for God and for himself.

Actually, I just did a little research, and many people do not believe that Moses existed. However, even if a man named Moses did exist, what does that prove? There is not any credible archaeological or textual evidence at all that the Jews were help captive in Egypt. If the Ten Plagues occurred, that would have been the end of Egypt as a major power in the Middle East. As history shows, that did not happened. It is much too convenient that the only surviving records of the Exodus and the Ten Plagues are found in the Bible. If God really wanted people to know about the Exodus and the Ten Plagues, he would have made sure that a number of non-Jewish records survived. As it was, in order to help skeptics, he made sure that all non-Jewish records of the Exodus and the Ten Plagues were destroyed. If those events actually happened, there is no doubt that hundreds if not thousands of records of the events were recorded. No rational God would have made sure that the best possible evidence, which would have been non-Jewish sources, was destroyed.

Well, there you go again bringing up the widely discredited book of Daniel. If you wish to defend the book of Daniel, please make a post in my thread on the book of Daniel. Since you keep bringing up Daniel, why do you continue to refuse to discuss it in the appropriate thread.

And congratulations to you for getting nominated for the Pulitzer Prize for fiction. Do you really expect to convince any undecided readers that you are right by making idle comments like that? I can trade comments like that with you as much as you want to, but where would that get us?

Please quote where I said that Israel has no right to exist. I never said that, but I will say that Abraham had no right to persecute and kill the Canaanites. If God wanted the Jews to occupy Canaan, he should have given the them enough money to legally purchase Canaan from the Canaanites. My position is that Israel does have a right to exist, but not under the terms of the original Partition of Palestine.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: In the early part of the 2nd century, Trajan went to Palestine and killed 500,000 Jews. Why didn't God protect the Jews?

What exactly has God protected Jews from for thousands of years, possibly from hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamies, plagues, droughts, and famines? It would not make any sense for God to protect the Jews from other humans and refuse to protect them from hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamies, plagues, droughts, and famines, but if the God of the Bible does not exist, then that explains this situation.

If Jews were able to occupy all of the ancient land of Canaan, is it your position that God would stop killing them with hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamies, plagues, droughts, and famines? If not, then God could not possibly care about the safety, health, and well-being of Jews. If God's only intention is proving that he is powerful, he certainly does not have to partition Palestine in order to do that. There would be much better ways for God to accomplish that, such as creating a new planet.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: If the Jews did not occupy Jerusalem, but occupied 70% of Palestine, would you call that a fulfilled Bible prophecy? If the Jews occupied one square mile of Palestine, would you call that a fulfilled prophecy? If not, why not?

Why do you believe that the Jews will not be kicked out of Palestine again? After all, the Philistines, Nebuchadnezzar, the Egyptians, and the Romans persecuted and killed many Jews of many occasions.

Sheshonq

Talk about hysterical overreaction and needy for attention. "Well if you don't believe in the bible the way I do, I bet you're an atheist gay communist who eats babies and sucks the blood from kittens."

What a joke your post is.

But I suppose you have no choice, do you? I mean, since fundies define their worldview in such a way that any mistake or error in the bible brings the whole house crashing down.