Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 05-12-2011, 01:01 PM

credoconsolans started this thead in World History, but it seems better for this forum:

Quote:

Originally Posted by credoconsolans

Anyone heard of this historian - Stephen Dando-Collins?

I just started his book The Great Fire of Rome (or via: amazon.co.uk) and in his introduction, he's blown my mind by putting forth the idea that Nero didn't persecute Christians for the Great Fire, he persecuted the followers of Isis.

He points out how easy it would be for some cleric to have substituted out the word Christians for Egyptians. Then he quotes the passage from Tacitus' Annals and then goes on to say:

"That 'an immense multitude' was arrested is another cause to doubt that these people were Christians. Even the Christian Church acknowledges that the Christian community in Rome in AD 64 would have been quite small. The Apostle Paul, in his letters, usually listed the many leading Christians of the city or town he was staying; in his letters from Rome of AD 60-62, he named not a single local Christian...The observation that some of these people were executed on crosses...tells us ...that they [the victims] were not Roman citizens..."

He says though Isis worship was extremely widespread by this time, it was also at one of its unpopular phases, looked down on as a 'foreign cult' and helped by the fact Nero had abandoned his worship of Isis.

The author also says that what Tacitus describes as their punishments also hints as Isis worshippers:
"Look again at what the Annals says about them: 'Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn apart by dogs and perished...'"

The author says that Romans particularly looked down on Egyptian theology because they worshipped what the Romans saw as animals, and that Anubis, one of the premiere gods of the pantheon, would have been seen as a dog. And that it would have 'mocked' them as worshippers to be dressed in the skins of animals that they worshipped.

Anyone heard of this author? Are his ideas supported by anyone else?

Is it supported that the Xtian community was too small to be Nero's main target in those days? I suppose the Jews could have been thrown in the mix to make up for a lack of Christians, since Xtianity was probably seen as a Jewish cult...

Any ideas?

Stephen Dando-Collins is an Australian author and researcher. He doesn't seem to have an academic position in history, and he aims more for historical entertainment and vivid writing, but his many books are well researched.

The two unfavorable reviews on Amazon base at least part of their opposition on the Bible.

GakuseiDon · 05-12-2011, 02:49 PM

May or may not be relevant, but on dogs adding mockery to their deaths: it seems that the pagans of that time thought that dogs (and candles tied to dogs), and the eating of human flesh, played a part in Christian ceremonies.

Tertullian "Ad nationes":

... Yet who ever came upon a half-consumed corpse (amongst us)? Who has detected the traces of a bite in our blood-steeped loaf? Who has discovered, by a sudden light invading our darkness, any marks of impurity, I will not say of incest, (in our feasts)?... Then he will say (to the applicant), You must bring an infant, as a guarantee for our rites, to be sacrificed, as well as some bread to be broken and dipped in his blood; you also want candles, and dogs tied together to upset them, and bits of meat to rouse the dogs... [it is said that] [w]e begin our religious service, or initiate our mysteries, with slaying an infant.

Minucius Felix "Octavius"

Now the story about the initiation of young novices is as much to be detested as it is well known. An infant covered over with meal, that it may deceive the unwary, is placed before him who is to be stained with their rites...

On a solemn day they assemble at the feast, with all their children, sisters, mothers, people of every sex and of every age. There, after much feasting, when the fellowship has grown warm, and the fervour of incestuous lust has grown hot with drunkenness, a dog that has been tied to the chandelier is provoked, by throwing a small piece of offal beyond the length of a line by which he is bound...

Upset candles tend to lead to fires. I wonder if the inclusion of dogs in pagan criticisms of Christian 'love feasts' was in fact a confusion with Egyptian mystery rites, e.g. Anubis. I can't imagine anything within early Christianity that would bring an association with dogs. Eating infants, cannibalism, love feasts, yes. But the use of dogs? That criticism always seemed out of place to me. So perhaps Dando-Collins explanation may have something to it after all.

judge · 05-12-2011, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The two unfavorable reviews on Amazon base at least part of their opposition on the Bible.

Guy Mannerings review on Amazon uk doesnt mention the bible. He is not glowing with priase though.

Quote:

When, later in his book, the author returns to the persecution in the wake of the Great Fire, the "what if" has totally vanished and the theory is presented as fact.

Quote:

Mr. Dando-Collins' tendency to extract facts from theory and speculation.

Quote:

It isn't that Dando-Collins' speculation is always impausible but the sleight-of-hand he adopts to convince us that we are dealing with facts or with the most likely scenario, and his failure to explore alternative theories, diminishes the value of the book for readers with a serious interest in the period.

Roger Pearse · 05-14-2011, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by credoconsolans

I just started his book The Great Fire of Rome (or via: amazon.co.uk) and in his introduction, he's blown my mind by putting forth the idea that Nero didn't persecute Christians for the Great Fire, he persecuted the followers of Isis.

He points out how easy it would be for some cleric to have substituted out the word Christians for Egyptians.

Or to have substituted the word "Christians" for "Martians".

Eric von Daniken did this kind of "argument" longer ago and rather better.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

mountainman · 05-14-2011, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by credoconsolans

I just started his book The Great Fire of Rome (or via: amazon.co.uk) and in his introduction, he's blown my mind by putting forth the idea that Nero didn't persecute Christians for the Great Fire, he persecuted the followers of Isis.

He points out how easy it would be for some cleric to have substituted out the word Christians for Egyptians.

Or to have substituted the word "Christians" for "Martians".

The evidence suggests that someone substituted the word "Christians" for "Chrestians".
There is archaeology for "Chrest".

05-12-2011, 02:49 PM	#2
GakuseiDon Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 5,714	May or may not be relevant, but on dogs adding mockery to their deaths: it seems that the pagans of that time thought that dogs (and candles tied to dogs), and the eating of human flesh, played a part in Christian ceremonies. Tertullian "Ad nationes": ... Yet who ever came upon a half-consumed corpse (amongst us)? Who has detected the traces of a bite in our blood-steeped loaf? Who has discovered, by a sudden light invading our darkness, any marks of impurity, I will not say of incest, (in our feasts)?... Then he will say (to the applicant), You must bring an infant, as a guarantee for our rites, to be sacrificed, as well as some bread to be broken and dipped in his blood; you also want candles, and dogs tied together to upset them, and bits of meat to rouse the dogs... [it is said that] [w]e begin our religious service, or initiate our mysteries, with slaying an infant. Minucius Felix "Octavius" Now the story about the initiation of young novices is as much to be detested as it is well known. An infant covered over with meal, that it may deceive the unwary, is placed before him who is to be stained with their rites... On a solemn day they assemble at the feast, with all their children, sisters, mothers, people of every sex and of every age. There, after much feasting, when the fellowship has grown warm, and the fervour of incestuous lust has grown hot with drunkenness, a dog that has been tied to the chandelier is provoked, by throwing a small piece of offal beyond the length of a line by which he is bound... Upset candles tend to lead to fires. I wonder if the inclusion of dogs in pagan criticisms of Christian 'love feasts' was in fact a confusion with Egyptian mystery rites, e.g. Anubis. I can't imagine anything within early Christianity that would bring an association with dogs. Eating infants, cannibalism, love feasts, yes. But the use of dogs? That criticism always seemed out of place to me. So perhaps Dando-Collins explanation may have something to it after all.

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