Peter Kirby

I've read several times today that Caligula gave Damascus over Aretas IV (in A.D. 39, because Aretas had held it earlier, allegedly). Can anyone find confirmation of that?

I've also read several references to a coin with a date of "101" on it that is identified with Aretas IV in Damascus. If dated in years from Pompey, the date would be A.D. 37.

If the reference is not from Paul and about in event in the 30s, what is it? (This is not a rhetorical question--it is a genuine one.)

best,
Peter Kirby

Toto

This is speculation designed to harmonize the Bible with Roman history. Doig covers it here:

I'm not sure what this question is - are you asking about the coin or about the story?

Peter Kirby

Two questions:

I've also read several references to a coin with a date of "101" on it that is identified with Aretas IV in Damascus. If dated in years from Pompey, the date would be A.D. 37. Does anyone have information on this coin?

If the reference in 2 Corinthians is not from Paul and about in event in the 30s, what is it? (This is not a rhetorical question--it is a genuine one.)

best,
Peter Kirby

Toto

From andrew's source

This contradicts Doig, who says that there are no coins from that period.

Aretas III minted a lot of coins in Damascus. Aretas IV minted coins that could have found their way to Damascus. I wonder how that 101 is interpreted - the source says "if that date points to the Pompeian era. . . " But why would one of Aretas' coins use a Pompeian date? I suspect that we have more harmonizing going on.

There are a lot of coins representing Aretas IV on the market. You can read descriptions here, e.g.

You have published several articles on christianorigins that claim that Damascus referred to Qumran (or some other monastic retreat, possibly in the land of the Damascenes), and Paul was speaking obliquely about his escapades there as an initiate and later being thrown out. If this is true, there is no need to tie the passage down to a date of 30. Aretas was probably just a locally famous king and Paul used his name to refer to a local leader (as I once referred to an domineering Hungarian teacher as "Atilla the Hun.")

Just my best guess.

Peter Kirby

The reason that I'd like info on the coin, such as a photograph, is that I have a hypothesis. That hypothesis is that it is a coin of Aretas III and not Aretas IV. If Aretas III conquered Damascus in 85 BCE and minted the coin about six years later, the coin would be referring to the year 180 BCE. This is around the same time that Aretas I is thought to have initiated rule as the first king of the Nabatean kingdom. This might make more sense than dating from the conquering done by Pompey--if other coins also dated from the reign of Aretas I. However, what makes me doubt it is that we don't know the exact date of Aretas I's rule, which we probably would if things were dated from his reign.

My own 'best guess' so far is that there was an ethnarch in Damascus who represented the Nabateans, and he is the one who took action againt Paul.

My second best guess is the (bizarre) idea that Paul was active, or putatively active, in the 80s BC, when Aretas III is known to have been king over Damascus.

My rhird best guess is that Aretas IV took Damascus as so many writers claim.

best,
Peter Kirby

andrewcriddle

When Pompey 'liberated' Damascus and other cities in Syria around 64-63 BCE most of those cities began dating events from the beginning of the new order.

Dating this way is known by scholars as 'Pompeian era' dates although IIUC this is not an ancient usage.

Different cities began the 'Pompeian era' at slightly different times but usually from 64 or 63 BCE.

Andrew Criddle

Toto

The ethnarch seems to be the most reasonable, except we have no motive for a local leader of Nabateans to be after Paul.

The second would fit in with the "Jesus lived 100 BC" idea but raises a lot of questions. Where were Paul's letters between 80 or 70 BCE and 120 when Marcion published them? Could they have been transmitted that accurately? Why are there no references to Christians from that period? The Jesus who lived 100 BC was stoned, but Paul seems to know nothing about this.

The third is possible, but seems to have no basis except a desire to keep the scriptures in sych with known history.

Are you discounting the articles on your site?

I still think that the most reasonable explanation is that Paul is speaking in metaphor, or referring to some story or event that his audience would be familiar with, but which is lost to us.

Peter Kirby

We don't have one because the author of 2 Corinthians doesn't name one. If the author named one, we would have one. This is really a problem only if we can show that this person, or such a person, could not have had one.

The strong objection seems to be that we don't have much evidence at all for Christians in the century of 70 BC-AD 30. If somebody wants to save this one, either Paul belonged to a separate movement and his writings were appropriated by Christians, or they are inauthentic letters.

Well, it is certain that the event is lost to us except for this reference (and possibly Acts). If you want to say that Paul is speaking in metaphor, I'd like to hear a case for it.

Sid Green relies on a partial interpolation of the passage. I was attempting to explain the passage as it stands in the text. I wonder whether Leidner would regard the passage as interpolated. It would be nice if his work were better developed.

best,
Peter Kirby

andrewcriddle

Re the idea of dating Paul before the middle of the 1st century BCE.

Philippians 4:22 Speaks of 'Caesar's household'.

I'm not sure when this was introduced as a technical term for the Emperor's staff, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't used before the establishment of the principate in 27 BCE.

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle

Why is 120 not the date of Paul's letters then?