Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 02-22-2008, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Micah 5:2 says “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom like Micah misled the Jews to believe, and had predicted that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Herod would become the King of Judea, would more Jews would have accepted Jesus?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Enough Jews accepted Jesus that Christianity spread throughout the Roman Empire and beyond and continues to exists for over 1967 years.

But that does not have anything to do with my question. Please answer my question.

No rational God would make 100% disputable prophecies. The Bible and all other religious books contain 100% disputable prophecies. If Pat Robertson accurately predicted when and where a natural disaster would occur, that would an indisputable prophecy. If that happened, surely some skeptics would become Christians who were not previously convinced. That is a reasonable assumption since historically, many people have accepted all kinds of outlandish religions based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that. In addition, Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce attracted a lot of follower based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that.

In your opinion, if God telephathically communicated the same messages to everyone in the world, would that eliminate a lot of doubt and confusion?

If you would rather discuss these issues in an existing thread at the GRD Forum, or in a new thread at the GRD Forum, just let me know.

arnoldo · 02-23-2008, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Nope, a God who treated everyone well would attract a lot more followers than the God of the Bible has attracted.

There was this guy that claimed to be God and during his life it is claimed that he fed thousands, healed many people, and cast many demons out of people as well as personally telling them how they could inherit eternal life.

The people he visited ended up having him crucified.

So I'm not buying the "nicer God = more followers" argument.

Yup, Yeshua choose the way of the Cross however he was tempted to not go that route and basically "turn stones into bread" and "give a sign IF he was the Son of God." I'm skimming through a book called War and Peace: From Genesis to Revelation (or via: amazon.co.uk) which states that Yeshua was practicing a type of "reverse fighting" which Isaiah describes as "the Servant" Vernard Eller goes on to say that early christianity was based on the Old Testament Holy War/Zion tradition understanding of Yeshua. Latter day christianity has moved away from this interpretation of the significance of Yeshua's death and resurrection and instead places more empahsis on as the author states "individualist-atonment" models, ie, "Your own personal Jesus." In contrast the Zion model fits more closely with how Yeshua fulfilled specific Old Testament prophecies and the role of Israel in the future. God still has a specific plan for Israel and the Jews/Israelis will never again be forced to leave their homeland.

Johnny Skeptic · 02-23-2008, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Nope, a God who treated everyone well would attract a lot more followers than the God of the Bible has attracted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

There was this guy that claimed to be God and during his life it is claimed that he fed thousands, healed many people, and cast many demons out of people as well as personally telling them how they could inherit eternal life.

The people he visited ended up having him crucified.

So I'm not buying the "nicer God = more followers" argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Yup, Yeshua choose the way of the Cross however he was tempted to not go that route and basically "turn stones into bread" and "give a sign IF he was the Son of God."

Micah 5:2 says “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom like Micah misled the Jews to believe, and had predicted that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Herod would become the King of Judea, surely more Jews would have accepted Jesus. There is no way that you will be able to convince any rational person to believe that God was not able to inspire Micah to write Micah 5:2 in ways that would have caused more Jews to accept Jesus.

Ksen said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

So I'm not buying the "nicer God = more followers" argument.

How utterly absurd. Is that supposed to mean that the God of the Bible is not able to attract a lot more followers than he has attracted? Do people not vote for presidents based upon benefits that they believe candidates will provide for them if they are elected? Are you not a Christian because you believe that God has provided you with benefits in this life, and will provide you with benefits in the next life?

Logically, if the only supposed God who had ever showed up had created and maintained a world that was much easier for humans to live in, he would have attracted a lot more followers than the God of the Bible has. I suppose that you do not believe the saying that says "You can catch a lot more flies with honey than you can with vinegar."

Please be advised that I will not allow you to manipulate me. If you refuse to directly reply to what I post, I will refuse to directly reply to what you post.

arnoldo · 02-23-2008, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Micah 5:2 says “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom like Micah misled the Jews to believe, and had predicted that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Herod would become the King of Judea, would more Jews would have accepted Jesus?

Your question is irrelevant. Christianity is based on a historical person, namely Jesus Christ. The early christians placed more importance on Yeshua whereas the religous leaders of the time place more importance on the scriptures which were pointing towards Yeshua.

Johnny Skeptic · 02-23-2008, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Micah 5:2 says “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom like Micah misled the Jews to believe, and had predicted that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Herod would become the King of Judea, would more Jews would have accepted Jesus?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Your question is irrelevant. Christianity is based on a historical person, namely Jesus Christ. The early christians placed more importance on Yeshua whereas the religous leaders of the time place more importance on the scriptures which were pointing towards Yeshua.

Nope, I will not allow you to manipulate me. If you refuse to directly reply to my arguments, I will refuse to directly reply to your arguments.
Micah 5:2 says “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom like Micah misled the Jews to believe, and had predicted that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Herod would become the King of Judea, would more Jews would have accepted Jesus? Please answer the question yes or no. You can add additional comments if you wish, but unless you also answer yes or no, I will not directly reply to your arguments.

If Pat Robertson used the world media to accurately predict when and where a natural disaster would occur, can you reasonably prove that not one single skeptic would become a Christian as a result? That would be an indisputable prophecy. The Bible contains 100% disputable prophecies. Historically, many people have accepted all kinds of outlandish religions based upon much less convincing evidence than that. In addition, Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce attracted a lot of followers based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that.

If you refuse to directly reply to those arguments, I will refuse to directly reply to your arguments. How do you like it when skeptics try to manipulate you like you try to manipulate them? You would not be willing to debate unless you could be evasive and insist on whose questions get answered, and which issues get discussed.

Johnny Skeptic · 02-23-2008, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Nope, a God who treated everyone well would attract a lot more followers than the God of the Bible has attracted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

There was this guy that claimed to be God and during his life it is claimed that he fed thousands, healed many people, and cast many demons out of people as well as personally telling them how they could inherit eternal life.

The people he visited ended up having him crucified.

So I'm not buying the "nicer God = more followers" argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Yup, Yeshua choose the way of the Cross however he was tempted to not go that route and basically "turn stones into bread" and "give a sign IF he was the Son of God."

Micah 5:2 says “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom like Micah misled the Jews to believe, and had predicted that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Herod would become the King of Judea, surely more Jews would have accepted Jesus. There is no way that you will be able to convince any rational person to believe that God was not able to inspire Micah to write Micah 5:2 in ways that would have caused more Jews to accept Jesus.

Ksen said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

So I'm not buying the "nicer God = more followers" argument.

How utterly absurd. Is that supposed to mean that the God of the Bible is not able to attract a lot more followers than he has attracted? Do people not vote for presidents based upon benefits that they believe candidates will provide for them if they are elected? Are you not a Christian because you believe that God has provided you with benefits in this life, and will provide you with benefits in the next life?

Logically, if the only supposed God who had ever showed up had created and maintained a world that was much easier for humans to live in, he would have attracted a lot more followers than the God of the Bible has. I suppose that you do not believe the saying that says "You can catch a lot more flies with honey than you can with vinegar."

Please be advised that I will not allow you to manipulate me. If you refuse to directly reply to what I post, I will refuse to directly reply to what you post.

arnoldo · 02-23-2008, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Micah 5:2 says “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom like Micah misled the Jews to believe, and had predicted that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Herod would become the King of Judea, would more Jews would have accepted Jesus?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Your question is irrelevant. Christianity is based on a historical person, namely Jesus Christ. The early christians placed more importance on Yeshua whereas the religous leaders of the time place more importance on the scriptures which were pointing towards Yeshua.

Nope, I will not allow you to manipulate me. If you refuse to directly reply to my arguments, I will refuse to directly reply to your arguments.
Micah 5:2 says “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom like Micah misled the Jews to believe, and had predicted that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Herod would become the King of Judea, would more Jews would have accepted Jesus? Please answer the question yes or no.

Basically you want prophecy to be a SCRIPT which any false prophet could follow and proclaim him/herself to be the messiah, how absurd. Since you have never studied the deeper theological underpinnings of Christianity I refer you to the following source which answers your question of why Micah 5:2 wasn't written differently.

Soruce: Vernard Eller: War and Peace: From Genesis to Revelation (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Quote:

But why were the New Testament Christians able to accept as obvious a confluence which their Jewish forebears hadn't even seen as possible? Were the Christians all that much smarter? Not at all. The difference is that the history of Jesus revelaed the possibility-and the actuality-of a confluence that wan't even guessed otherwise. . . The Zion tradition is not taken as a static given and then the history of Jesus tortured to conform to it. Rather, the history of Jesus is the given, and the Zion tradition then is used to interpret it. . .

Johnny Skeptic · 02-23-2008, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Nope, I will not allow you to manipulate me. If you refuse to directly reply to my arguments, I will refuse to directly reply to your arguments. Micah 5:2 says “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom like Micah misled the Jews to believe, and had predicted that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Herod would become the King of Judea, would more Jews would have accepted Jesus? Please answer the question yes or no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Basically you want prophecy to be a SCRIPT which any false prophet could follow and proclaim him/herself to be the messiah, how absurd.

Ok, my hypothetical scenario has the following predictions:

1 - The messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom, not an earthly kingdom.

2 - The messiah would heal people.

3 - The messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days.

4 - Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine.

5 - Herod would become the King of Judea.

Now how in the world is a false prophet supposed to fulfill all of those predictions? In addition, predictions 4 and 5 do not have anything to do with the messiah. If Micah had made all of those predictions, are you going to tell us that that one single extra person would have become a follower of Jesus? Historically, many people have accepted all kinds of outlandish religions based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that. In addition, Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce attracted a lot of followers based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that.

Johnny Skeptic · 02-23-2008, 12:00 PM

Message to arnoldo: Please reply to my post #36.

Johnny Skeptic · 02-23-2008, 01:34 PM

Message to arnoldo: Please reply to my posts #36 and #38.

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02-23-2008, 12:00 PM	#39
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to arnoldo: Please reply to my post #36.

02-23-2008, 01:34 PM	#40
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to arnoldo: Please reply to my posts #36 and #38.

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