judge

Oh Spin, you seem to have retained the worst aspects of religion though, rather than shrugged them off.

Trying to make others feel guilty.

Wads4

"Certainly. That's not at issue. It's why bother peddling your religionist ideas here at an infidels site?"

They have to,-Jesus and Paul told them to, and being unthinking robots they have to blindly obey.

spin

I would like to think that those who have made the brave step of shedding their religion can find solace and support here. Losing your religion can be a very alienating event, as you are now terminally separated from your believing friends. I know that people do get support here, though the fundy contingent who must come here for their own necessities don't help the escapees very much.

Incidentally, I was born into a freethinking family. The grandparents I knew were both freethinkers. I'm very thankful. I personally had no chains to shrug off. It's like I'm from Zion and most others are trapped in the matrix.

The disconnection for those who need it is usually ugly. There will even be a few, like Cypher, who will prefer to go back and forget about reality. It's just to nude and crude and ugly to deal with. And sadly it's understandable. But I'm for helping get as many out as possible. There is even hope for you, as you maintain a tiny attachment to reality through this place.


spin

spin

That's not nice. If you've lost religion, you can appreciate where they are.


spin

Wads4

Sorry-yes a bit harsh.

cass256

look, first of all my crack about atheists was out of line because it was aimed at one who I think may not be an atneist. Now, THAT was rude, I'll admit and apologize. My apology also to the moderator, who is the epitome of decorum. More should learn from his example, myself included.

Secondly, I was offended by a comment on a post I made on another subject a while back, that I purposfully worded in order to get certain people's opinions. It was rudely attacked, just the question itself. After that and watchinngs here escaalate to a boxing match, I purposefully avoided this thread. I had picked up the the Aramaic NT to specifically read the Eloi Eloi passage, on my own, and came here to post what was translated from the aramaic, and pilate's post made me look back at what the Author wrote about what was written on the cross. I was mostly posting it to show him others had his opinion.
The side comment hit me the wrong way. I've been rude to people who've been rude to me. I carry it over from other threads.
I came to these boards becasue I wanted to see ideas and discussions that are not all seen with the Christian slant. I think you'll find a lot of people here who are moving away from Christian roots, becasue the more they read the more they find that doesn't add up. If you didn't want theists here, you should make it only open to atheists. But, I think you would probably get quite bored. Biblical criticism and history is not about language alone, Spin. But as much as you can irritate me, I do have a high regard for your knowledge. If I had something that i was unsure of the translation, you are the first person i would approach for the answer. I would probbably not have been so irritated with you on another thread, if it was not for your sidekcik chiming in. And that is when I lost the ability to be pleasant.

Now, having never taken a class on Religion (excpt under duress as a small child, and that wasn't a class that was brainwashing), never schooled in language, philosophic argument, or anything close to debate, I am just learning the ropes. For you who have ,it is probably hard to see why I don't get it. Well, I had no idea what you were talking about until I looked up the phrase, and the moderator explained. When it is a battle ground we cannot register what is being said, or at least I can't. I didn't realize what the rules of evidence were. It makes sense now. I learned the hard way.

And yes, this made me look at my own attitude and posts. I do not like being brught down to that level. I won't go back and forth on who first posted what, but if I offended anyone I would like to try to be more civil in the future. Can't make promises because I've seen the heated debates, and i can't always control how I react.


And for the Dachshund (I think that is your nickname and not meant to be a cut) I'll try to keep in mind that it is not what you say, it is how you say it, if you will.


That being said, back to the OP... this Dr. lamsa's translation from the Aramaic says "for this I was kept' in Matthew. Just throwing it out there.

As far as the language spoken in that era, I am still going to have to get more background on josephus. Something just isn't sitting right with me. His circumstances in how he was first captured, and his agenda, to me is curious.

I plan on doing a lot more looking into his backround and circumstances, as well as the discussion on the Testimonium flavianium controversy. I'd like to know what the chances of his knowing paul. But, that is for another topic and time.

cass256

I was born into a practising Catholic family. We were not allowed to touch a bible, because only "priests can understand" what we lowly mortals can't. They also practiced spare the rod and spoil the child. All I learned was that Catholics were going to hell no matter what they do, unless they were either perfect or got" last rights" (sp) before they died. Left home and school early, witness my poor English and languaage skills, but was able to talk a College into accepting me without having finished highschool, and later recieved my highschool diploma for having finished College. Then it was working next to a baptist who, shockingly to me, was reading a Bible. That led to becoming Christianized. They teach you to not read a bible straight through. You "believe' and then just open the Bible where it may, and reading what is on the page you try to see how it applies to you.
My search for an unhypocritical denomination led me through all sorts of interesting paths.. and then one day it hit me.. Paul and james don't agree, and luke and matthew contradict. and Acts is a joke, not even consistant in itself.
That led to me reading the OT, and finding out about YHWH. It was all downhill from there. What do you do when your friends wear crosses, and a close friend tells you she has decided to become a missionary? That was about the time I ended up here. Arguments and all, I am finding out how little i know, and how little we are taught.

You guys who have studied language count your blessings. If I could live my life all over I would know Greek and Hebrew/Aramaic, ane be able to get as close to the source as possible. I would never have put on the Christian blinders. Do you know how they get you? Santa Claus! no joke. if we weren't brought up to believe the impossible can happen, we would never have fallen so easily for the virgin birth, and God becoming Jesus. We are preprogrammed to believe. They rip away Santa clause and then hand you baby jesus in the manger, and magical mary's mystery tour, and the fear that if you don't believe it you will go to hell.

spin

I think he already knew that.

As to being attacked, it is rarely personal. Nobody knows the real you, so there can be nothing personal in it. Most people are attacked at one time or another who post here. It's the nature that people on internet will go for the throat because there is no personal presence to restrain them, or because they feel attacked and vulnerable. However, I notice that people who stick around do develop a sense of community here. And at the strangest of times people who normally don't say anything will come out to show that they have been reading intently, that they appreciate the existence of the community and then return to an anonymous presence.

I encourage anyone who wants to take part here to do so. Yes, religionists are welcome, but I do have problems when religionists come merely to do their christian duty and carry on rearguard actions to defend their faith. I hope you understand that I see a difference between those who wish to partake in the community and those who come here without any interest in community at all. You know where you stand. Nobody is aggressive to you personally. Rude comments are only natural at times, so you are rude back if you react that way, as I sometimes do. It is the heat of the moment.

And incidentally, I'm no atheist, though agnostics may be lumped with atheists by raving religionists.

Interestingly, I'm more stimulated by the idea of what could be learnt about BC&H without the constant necessity of dealing with prophecy fulfillment, contradictions, errors, or whatever else that people want to propound or defend against. My basic interests are rarely dealt with on the forum and never dealt with by religionists who are usually too tied up with nt to get into my interests, so I can happily live without religionists who want to swing their weight around.

I have never claimed that it is, but our starting point is almost invariably text, so one must be able to deal with it. I am also a staunch defender of the inherent value of the text for its literary and cultural interest to the chagrin of some of the posters here, who have been so burnt by christianity that the put their antagonism on the literature as the symbol of the chains they have shrugged off and not on the people who maintain the enslavement.

I don't have sidekicks here. Everyone is a full human being and doesn't deserve the mere sidekick status. I have forum friends and co-conspirators.

It'll come back.

And it makes me feel good that you see some benefit. I'm a didactic bastard, but I believe that when people get useful tools they can employ them whenever they see fit.

Well, I've been in the heated debates. My approach is, despite the heat and my frequent involvement in it, we have things to deal with, so we should do so. This means that I'll bandy the caustic comment, but that won't be the reason for the post. I was hoping that Pilate would get over his feelings of being affronted and get into reasoning, but sadly this doesn't seem to have been the case.

Dachshund?

Agro boiling over will happen anyway. But, as I said, it's not personal. Steam is blown and hopefully it's back to business.

Unfortunately, I've lost the context, having been through too many wars recently. Could you explain the point about Lamsa's translation?

You know at some stage, evidence might come along and necessitate that Aramaic was the language of the vast bulk of the population, but then again evidence might come along to bolster the case that Hebrew was even more alive and kicking than I think. I'm not wedded to the notion. What I object to is the necessary assumption of the position when there is in my mind sufficient evidence that Hebrew was so alive and kicking as the DSS show.

Yup. Josephus is worth more time. I've found that for his time and his works he is a writer less deserving of maligning than what he receives. I've found him quite often accurate for his own time and quite willing to change his views about things as a comparison between his War and AJ shows. So, when you have the time, you can bring back what you find. The results could be lively.


spin

cass256

well, despite telling myself i will never post here again, and removing my own posts, I find myself coming back, and i note a lot of very interesting information and mentally give credit where credit is due. 8)


Well, that is interesting. maybe i can think of heading more toward agnosticism and find I can deal with myself easier in that light.

I can understand your feelings there and imagine it must be a frustration that gets in the way of the reason you are here.

i see your position here as well. It has been good for me, becasue it has lead me into looking into learning more of the language and consider that there may be answers in the text that I will not see as long as I do not know the language. I see a lot of quotes here from different versions of the bible that add words, or turn a phrase that has nothing to do with what was literally written. I have a Hebrew Greek interlinear, and have been surprised what what is Not in the text, but IS in different English translations.

that is one I just have to shake off. I think that is what I felt at the time and held a grudge.



have no doubt about it, when looking at the perspective within guidelines, it really makes a difference. You realize how much you have been relying on Authority alone. It didn't dawn on me how much I can take for granted. So a great lesson learned.



8) That wasn't meant for you. I am hoping I am not wrong that someone else here goes by that symbol elsewhere, or I will have to come out with a formal apology using his real name.

..that was the difference between "My god my god, why have you forsaken me", from the greek, to "my god my god for this I was saved" in the Peshitta translation from Aramaic. I had never heard of the peshitta before seeing it mentioned here. It would be interesting to know wether he felt forsaken and duped, or if he was saying he understood the purpose, or thought he did, if there was ever a literal character who uttered the phrase.
I am staying open on this one, as I have not seen anything convincing to make a stance on. My only point in the begining was that it all seemed to rest on what the native tongue was to the people at the time, and not to have to tie it to Hebrew. I wasn't as much arguing a side as trying to keep it open, or up in the air.
I will, I have ordered 2 containing the first 2 volumes in the War, so i can get his perspective first hand, and a better feel for the times. I found a good volume on josephus that has been used in University and seminary courses on Josephus. I have also found a scource for copies of what Eisler wrote about the disputed passages of Josephus on "christ" and also a reprint of a rebbutal arguments. Of course, that means I have to read more on Origen, becasue I think it stems from someone realizing that Origin didn't mention the disputed passage, so how could it have been there? ..not a convincing argument against the passage alone, so I do have a lot of reading to do. Thank god I am a fast reader.


At any rate, thanks Spin. it is good to get the negative feelings behind me, so I can concentrate on what each side is saying equally. It is stupid that emotions can cloud ones vision of the truth, no matter who writes it, but we're only human and subject to hormonal reactions.

judge

How would you know?


But you do appear to have the very worst chains of religion.

Although you admit you know no other way, you insist your way is best. Others have chains to shrug off.

This is what religious people do. Don't you see. they grow up with a certain view and then assume their way is best and have disdain for other views.

Come step back and have a laugh at yourself.

This is the worst aspect of religion, and you don't even see you have it.

It's like you think you are from Zion, but how would you know? You admit your own experience is limited.
You would not know if you were trapoped in the matrix as you have nothing to compare your "Zion" with.

Have a laugh at yourself.

Well you might be second guessing things about me Spin.

But yes this forum is helpful to me if I keep my mind open.

All the best