Freethought & Rationalism Archive

semiopen · 11-23-2011, 05:14 AM

In a previous thread I mentioned that the crazy Orthodox position on the Western Wall is that it was built for the first temple.

http://news.yahoo.com/old-coins-forc...121242557.html

Quote:

For centuries, many thought the wall was built by King Herod - also infamous, in the Christian tradition, for his efforts to hunt down the baby Jesus in the original Christmas story.

But archaeologists said they had found coins buried under the wall's foundations minted 20 years after King Herod's death in 4 B.C., showing the structure was completed by his successors.

Quote:

The authority said academic historians were already aware of an account by the Jewish historian Josephus that the wall was completed by Herod's great grandson.

Well I hope they are, seeing that basically all they do is read Josephus.

I'll have to ask my rabbi how he thinks the coins got there.

Sheshbazzar · 11-23-2011, 06:52 AM

הנה מופת דבר הזה׃

HENNAY! MOPETH! ha'davar ha'zeh!

BEHOLD! a MIRACLE! this thing is!

just havin me a wee bit o'fun here folks :Cheeky:

Davka · 11-23-2011, 07:02 AM

Interesting.

It is so frustrating, form a scientific p.o.v., that the Temple Mount is the focus of so many religious zealots. Archaeology would learn unimaginable amounts if they were allowed to dig there. The closest they can get is digging right next to the Wall.

I was invited on a tour of the infamous Western Wall Tunnel back in the 90s when it was a source of political controversy. The excavation team wanted members of the press to see for themselves that they were not undermining the Mount in any way, so they brought about a dozen of us through the tunnel with a guide. It was fascinating.

The most intriguing part was passing by blocked-off stairway entrances which used to be used by the priests to gain access to the Temple. Today they are filled with two millenniums' worth of dirt and rubble, an archaeologist's wet dream. What's more, nobody is really sure where they come out on the top of the mount. Excavating those stairwells would answer once and for all the question of where the Temple was actually located. But it's "Holy Ground," and riots would ensue if science got it's grubby hands in that pristine dirt.

Fucking humans.

Davka · 11-23-2011, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

הנה מופת דבר הזה׃

HENNAY! MOPETH! ha'davar ha'zeh!

BEHOLD! a MIRACLE! this thing is!

just havin me a wee bit o'fun here folks :Cheeky:

In modern Hebrew, this phrase sounds almost identical to "hey, this thing is a Moped!" Puns abound.

Sheshbazzar · 11-23-2011, 07:40 AM

Yep! One of the reasons that I get such a kick out of pursuing the Hebrew texts and idioms. They are so rich!

semiopen · 11-23-2011, 07:49 AM

There doesn't seem to be anything found there from First Temple times.

Solomon's_Temple

Quote:

...there is no direct archaeological evidence for the existence of Solomon's Temple, and no mentions of it in the surviving, contemporary extra-biblical literature. An Ivory pomegranate mentions priests in the house of YHWH, and an inscription recording the Temple's restoration under Jehoash have appeared on the antiquities market, but the authenticy of both have been challenged and they remain the subject of controversy.

The Oldest Datable Chambers on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem

The actual article on JSTOR is better; everything seems to be second temple and not even early second temple; mostly Hasmonean.

Was the Siloam Tunnel Built by Hezekiah?
Authors: John Rogerson and Philip R. Davies
Source: The Biblical Archaeologist, Vol. 59, No. 3 (Sep., 1996), pp. 138-149

Quote:

If the tunnel transported water for strategic reasons, then this pool must have been within the walls of the city. It is much more likely that this was the case during Hasmonean times than during the era of Hezekiah.

Quote:

We have argued that "Hezekiah's Tunnel" is a misnomer. The archaeological data strongly suggest a Hasmonean date, the biblical data show no awareness of a tunnel built by Hezekiah, and the paleography permits no decisive conclusion. The possibility that Hezekiah was responsible for Warren's Shaft remains.

stephan huller · 11-23-2011, 02:26 PM

http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/Jew...aspx?id=246679

Quote:

In sifting the dirt from the mikve, three clay lamps were found of the type prevalent in the 1st Century AD. In addition, excavators found 17 identifiable bronze coins. Dr. Donald Ariel of Antique Authority coins treasury, stated that the most recent coins were stamped by the Roman governor Valerius Gratus in 17/18 AD. This means that Robinson's Arch, and perhaps a longer part of the Western Wall, were built after this year - at least 20 years after Herod's death.

dendrast · 11-23-2011, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

BEHOLD! a MIRACLE! this thing is!

The Dark Side, hard to see, it is.

credoconsolans · 11-23-2011, 07:02 PM

I like how the article stated that scholars and archaeologists already knew it hadn't been built by King Herod. Folklore, myth and stubborn nationalism are hard nuts to crack.

bilby · 11-23-2011, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

הנה מופת דבר הזה׃

HENNAY! MOPETH! ha'davar ha'zeh!

BEHOLD! a MIRACLE! this thing is!

just havin me a wee bit o'fun here folks :Cheeky:

In modern Hebrew, this phrase sounds almost identical to "hey, this thing is a Moped!" Puns abound.

Hebrew? I thought that was Klingon for "Scratch my moped and you're DEAD, asshole!"

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11-23-2011, 06:52 AM	#2
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	הנה מופת דבר הזה׃ HENNAY! MOPETH! ha'davar ha'zeh! BEHOLD! a *MIRACLE!* this thing is! just havin me a wee bit o'fun here folks :Cheeky:

11-23-2011, 07:02 AM	#3
Davka Contributor Join Date: May 2010 Location: Babble Belt Posts: 20,748	Interesting. It is so frustrating, form a scientific p.o.v., that the Temple Mount is the focus of so many religious zealots. Archaeology would learn unimaginable amounts if they were allowed to dig there. The closest they can get is digging right next to the Wall. I was invited on a tour of the infamous Western Wall Tunnel back in the 90s when it was a source of political controversy. The excavation team wanted members of the press to see for themselves that they were not undermining the Mount in any way, so they brought about a dozen of us through the tunnel with a guide. It was fascinating. The most intriguing part was passing by blocked-off stairway entrances which used to be used by the priests to gain access to the Temple. Today they are filled with two millenniums' worth of dirt and rubble, an archaeologist's wet dream. What's more, nobody is really sure where they come out on the top of the mount. Excavating those stairwells would answer once and for all the question of where the Temple was actually located. But it's "Holy Ground," and riots would ensue if science got it's grubby hands in that pristine dirt. Fucking humans.

11-23-2011, 07:40 AM	#5
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Yep! One of the reasons that I get such a kick out of pursuing the Hebrew texts and idioms. They are so rich!

11-23-2011, 07:02 PM	#9
credoconsolans Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: land of the home, free of the brave Posts: 9,729	I like how the article stated that scholars and archaeologists already knew it hadn't been built by King Herod. Folklore, myth and stubborn nationalism are hard nuts to crack.

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