Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Julio · 05-22-2009, 01:23 AM

Or simply “full of spirit”? [pneumatos]
Is it not different?
Acts 6:3 - Look out therefore, brethren, from among yourselves seven men, well reported of, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we will establish over this business. [Darby Translation]
("spiritually-minded", William Barclay).
Is the KJV wrong in this verse?

God Fearing Atheist · 05-22-2009, 10:36 AM

According to my NA27, Acts 6.3 reads "πληρεις πνευματος και σοφιας," full of spirit and wisdom. If you wanted it to read "the holy spirit," you'd need to throw a του αγιου in there.

Julio · 05-22-2009, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Fearing Atheist

According to my NA27, Acts 6.3 reads "πληρεις πνευματος και σοφιας," full of spirit and wisdom. If you wanted it to read "the holy spirit," you'd need to throw a του αγιου in there.

Yes, that's what I thought.
But then why, on what argument would the KJV translators ADD a new nuance to the sentence?
I'm not sure, but the Latin Vulgate doesn't agree with the KJV... (?)

God Fearing Atheist · 05-22-2009, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julio

Yes, that's what I thought.
But then why, on what argument would the KJV translators ADD a new nuance to the sentence?
I'm not sure, but the Latin Vulgate doesn't agree with the KJV... (?)

αγιου found its way into the Textus Receptus.

andrewcriddle · 05-22-2009, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Fearing Atheist

αγιου found its way into the Textus Receptus.

Yes. Holy is found here in most manuscripts of Acts but not in the early ones.

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle · 05-22-2009, 01:28 PM

You mean the Pentecostal training Bible - Dake's Concordance of the KJV - is wrong?

Solo · 05-23-2009, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julio

Or simply “full of spirit”? [pneumatos]
Is it not different?
Acts 6:3 - Look out therefore, brethren, from among yourselves seven men, well reported of, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we will establish over this business. [Darby Translation]
("spiritually-minded", William Barclay).
Is the KJV wrong in this verse?

I think the later addition of 'holy' is trivial. It was the axiomatic belief of the early Pauline church that the phenomena of the spirit were 'holy', or rather that they were 'God's call to holiness'. (1 Th 4:7). This was the sine qua non of the early faith and led to the Markan Jesus' proscription of the view of the spirit as 'unclean' (Mk 3:29-30). The problem for Paul was that the spirit as the 'faculty' through which one saw Jesus as the Lord (1 Cr 12:3), was also one which regularly associated with all sorts of excess: drunkeness, gluttony, sexual license. Paul radically rejected the after-us-deluge lifestyle of the visionaries, calling them false apostles and deceivers, and comparing their numinous visions to Satan's disguise as an angel of light (2 Cr 11:14, Isa 14:12). His and his pupils' asceticism were to serve as proof that their visions truly came from God, no matter how insane they looked when the spirit took hold of them.

2 Cr 5:13 If we are out of our mind (ἐξίστημι) it is for God, if we are in our right mind, it is for you.

Jiri

Clivedurdle · 05-23-2009, 10:46 AM

Not necessarily trivial! Is this not an example of the invention of the trinity and the slow editing of texts to conform to the new theology?

Quote:

Why is the Assemblies of God so committed to the doctrine of the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues?

The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a vital experience of the Christian life. It is a special work of the Spirit beyond salvation. On the Day of Pentecost, disciples who had already made a decision to follow Jesus "were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues" (Acts 2:4). Paul asked the Ephesians disciples if they had received the Holy Spirit, after which "the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues" (Acts 19:2). New Testament believers were constantly challenged to be filled with the Spirit (Acts 1:4,5; Ephesians 5:18). The Assemblies of God is committed to the baptism in the Holy Spirit because the experience is such an important focus of New Testament Christianity.
Though many non-Pentecostals teach a baptism in the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues, the position of the Assemblies of God is clearly declared in Section 8 of its Statement of Fundamental Truths: "The baptism of believers in the Holy Spirit is witnessed by the initial sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit of God gives them utterance (Acts 2:4)." The evidence always occurred (and still does today) at the time believers were baptized in the Spirit, not at some indeterminate future time.

http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/gendoct_02_baptismhs.cfm

Solo · 05-23-2009, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Not necessarily trivial! Is this not an example of the invention of the trinity and the slow editing of texts to conform to the new theology?

Quote:

Why is the Assemblies of God so committed to the doctrine of the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues?

I called it trivial the addition of the 'holy' to the 'spirit' in verse 6:3 of the Acts. It is evident from the context that in the appointment of the seven, that the spirit talked about was of the holy variety, as I understand it and explained it above. It would be the same as if e.g. a textual variant of Rom 7:6 (But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit) had 'holy' added to the mention of spirit there. It would carry no new meaning, IMO. No need to go into the Trinity doctrine and modern Pentecostalism.

Regards,
Jiri

Clivedurdle · 05-23-2009, 11:47 PM

Quote:

No need to go into the Trinity doctrine and modern Pentecostalism.

Agreed but it is the equivalent of leaving the gate open in a field and allowing all the animals to stampede out! Look at the wondrous cults and beliefs and activities it has spawned!

The parallel discussion here about kjv is exactly about the repercussions of a translation.

05-22-2009, 01:23 AM	#1
Julio Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Johannesburg Posts: 5,187	Full of the Holy Ghost, Acts 6:3 Or simply “full of spirit”? [pneumatos] Is it not different? Acts 6:3 - Look out therefore, brethren, from among yourselves seven men, well reported of, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we will establish over this business. [Darby Translation] ("spiritually-minded", William Barclay). Is the KJV wrong in this verse?

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05-22-2009, 10:36 AM	#2
God Fearing Atheist Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Massachusetts, USA -- Let's Go Red Sox! Posts: 1,500	According to my NA27, Acts 6.3 reads "πληρεις πνευματος και σοφιας," full of spirit and wisdom. If you wanted it to read "the holy spirit," you'd need to throw a του αγιου in there.

05-22-2009, 01:28 PM	#6
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	You mean the Pentecostal training Bible - Dake's Concordance of the KJV - is wrong?

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