DCHindley

While looking up the alleged pagan writers quoted or alluded to in the NT, one resource says the passage at Acts 17:28, "In him we live and move and have our being" is likely a citation of Epimenides De oraculis/peri Chresmon, while the passage at Titus 1:12 "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons" is from Epimenides Cretica.

The problem is this. If you look up the quotes on the Internet, they are both identical: “They fashioned a tomb for thee, O high and holy one, the Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies! But thou art not dead; thou livest and abidest forever; for in thee we live and move and have our being.”

I'm wondering, now, whether these are actually the same work known under different names by different scholars.

Can Roger Pearse, Ben Smith or one of our other resident wags shed any light on this mystery?

DCH

GakuseiDon

My guess: "Cretica" seems to refer specifically to the poem you give above. Perhaps "De oraculis" was a collection of his writings in which the poem can be found?

Toto

Wikipedia attributes both quotes to Cretica, which I gather survives in only a few fragments.

Clement of Alexandria identified the quotes as coming from Epimenides. Jerome identified the particular work as "De oraculis" in his commentary on Titus.

The works of Epimenides are not on line that I can find. It appears that most of the source are quoting another source on the identity of the passage.

DCHindley

Here are some online versions:

Epimenides (ca. 600 B. C.), writing about the Greek god Zeus in his poem De oraculis/peri Chresmon: “They fashioned a tomb for thee, O high and holy one, the Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies! But thou art not dead; thou livest and abidest forever; for in thee we live and move and have our being.”

http://www.meridianmagazine.com/gosp...802nt31sf.html

Epimenides' poem Cretica is quoted twice in the New Testament. In the poem, Minos addresses Zeus thus:

They fashioned a tomb for thee, O holy and high one—
The Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies!
But thou art not dead: thou livest and abidest forever,
For in thee we live and move and have our being.

The "lie" of the Cretians is that Zeus was mortal; Epimenides considered Zeus immortal. "Cretians, always liars", with the same theological intent as Epimenides, also appears in the Hymn to Zeus of Callimachus. The fourth line is quoted without attribution in the Acts of the Apostles, chapter 17, verse 28.

The second line is quoted, with a veiled attribution ("a prophet of their own"), in the Epistle to Titus, chapter 1, verse 12, to warn Titus about the Cretians. The "prophet" in Titus 1:12 is identified by Clement of Alexandria as Epimenides (Miscellanies, chapter 14). In this passage, Clement mentions that "some say" Epimenides should be counted among the seven wisest philosophers

http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/koino...p?TOPIC_ID=322

42 7. Twice two poets. These are Aratus, Cleanthes, Epimenides, and Menander. The first two are quoted in Acts 17. 28, the third Titus 1.12, and the fourth I Cor. 15.33.

The verse, "For in him we live, and move, and have our being," is found substantially in the Phenomena … of Aratus, who lived in the third century B.C., and in the Hymn to Zeus of Cleanthes, whose lifetime fell somewhat later in the same century.

Epimenides of Crete lived much earlier, in the sixth century B.C. It is to him that Paul is said by Chrysostom and others to refer in Titus 1.12 : "One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, idle gluttons." The quotation, which forms a complete hexameter in the original, is said by the early commentators to have been taken from his poem On Oracles, which has long since perished.

The gnomic sentence, "Evil company doth corrupt good manners," I Cor. 15. 33, is from the Thais of the comic dramatist Menander (342-291 B.C.).

http://books.google.com/books?id=z4M...um=1&ct=result

1. (Paul, Epistle to Titus, 1. 12: One of the Cretans, their own prophet, said of them): The Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy stomachs. (Clement says that Paul means Epimenides, Jerome that it came from the Oracles of Epimenides).

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/app/app05.htm

The ultimate source, it seems, is to be found in The Book of the Acts (or via: amazon.co.uk) By Frederick Fyvie Bruce, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 1988 (ISBN 0802825052, 9780802825056, 564 pages):

Page 339, Note 75:

The quatrain is quoted in a Syriac version by the ninth-century commentator Isho'dad (ed. M. D. Gibson, Horae Semiticae, X [Cambridge, 1913], p. 40.) Isho'dad was probably dependent here on Theodore of Mopsuestia (350-428); he reproduces Theodore's use of Diogenes Laertius's story (see p. 336, n. 62) to illustrate the statement "To an Unknown God." The Cretan's claim to be able to point out the tomb of Zeus was felt to be an impious falsehood. The second line of the quatrain is quoted in Tit. 1:12; according to Clement of Alexandria (Miscellanies 1.14.59.1-2) it comes from a work by Epiminedes. A similar sentiment appears in Callimachus's Hymn to Zeus (lines 7-8): "Cretans are always liars: For the Cretans, O King, actually fashioned a tomb for thee. But thou hast not died; thou art for ever." The line here quoted by Paul can with little difficulty be given hexameter form; Cod. D spoils the rhythm by adding "day by day" at the end of it.

http://books.google.com/books?id=QE5...sult#PPA339,M1

DCH

mountainman

Dear DCHindley,

The author(s) of Acts 17:28/Titus 1:12 may defer to Crete because of its ancient historical prominence in first the Greek, and then the Roman civilisation during the period from well BCE until the time of the authorship of Titus and Acts. From a totally objective archaeological perspective, the discovery of the Greek law codes of Gortys reinforces the argument that Crete was one of the chief centers of Greek academic culture during this period. The ancient text you cite refers to the tomb of Zeus. That the actual tomb of Zeus (Himself, father of Apollo, father of Asclepius) was by tradition to be located physically on Crete is a claim many researchers and authors have taken seriously, since antiquity. Titus is the christian bishop sent to the heathens of Crete by Paul in the first century tradition as presented in the canonical Acts of the Apostles.

I had not realised before that the lines
are originally attributable to a "pagan" author. Thank you for shining the light on this one little tiny fragment of truth in a huge ancient historical jig-saw puzzle with thousands and thousands of bits. Tracking down the correct attribution of this phrase is not of course ended, and I hope you find more information as time passes.

Best wishes,


Pete

Ben C Smith

I looked into this issue (NT quotations of pagan sources) very briefly a while ago, and this is what I found (taken straight from my notes):

Titus 1.12: Callimachus, Hymn to Zeus 1.8; but originally from Epimenides, according to Clement of Alexandria, and possibly modelled on Hesiod, Theogony 26.
Acts 17.28a: Cleanthes, Hymn to Zeus. Epimenides, Cretica or Minos? Aratus?
Acts 17.28b: Aratus, Phaenomena 5; Cleanthes?
1 Corinthians 15.33: Menander, Thaïs, fragment 218; Euripides?
Acts 26.14 uses a saying also found in Euripides, Bacchae 794; however, this saying was probably proverbial.
Paul also refers to the Roman slogan pax et securitas (peace and security or peace and safety) in 1 Thessalonians 5.3.

To unpack this a bit....

It appears that, to follow Clement of Alexandria, Miscellanies 1.14, Epimenides penned the lines about Cretans that we find in Titus 1.12, including the part about laziness and gluttony. But sometimes you will find this verse attributed to Callimachus, Hymn to Zeus (there is also a Classical Quarterly article online that touches on this); however, Callimachus appears to lack the part about laziness and gluttony, so Clement is probably right about the attribution to Epimenides, and Callimachus is probably quoting Epimenides in his own work. The line is similar to something that Hesiod wrote, but not similar enough to indicate that Hesiod himself was in mind in any of our present texts; he was merely the inspiration for the sentiment.

Acts 17.28a is found in substance, though not precisely, in the early going of Cleanthes, Hymn to Zeus. But some sources I have seen attribute this line to Epimenides or to Aratus (though I myself cannot seem to find a line close enough in the Phaenomena).

Acts 17.28b is prhaps more straightforward, since the saying is found in line 5 of Aratus, Phaenomena. But, again, I have also seen this line attributed to Cleanthes, though I cannot seem to find anything there close enough to override Aratus.

1 Corinthians 15.33 appears to quote fragment 218 of the lost Thaïs of Menander, but (again) I have seen this line also attributed to Euripides (again!).

The confusions that mount over these attributions stem, I think, from the following:

1. Some of the works are lost to us, and we depend completely in such cases on attributions made by the church fathers commenting on the NT texts.
2. Some later poets seem to be adapting lines from earlier poets.
3. Two of the poems that arise in these discussions bear the same title, Hymn to Zeus (by Callimachus and by Cleanthes).
4. Many, many of the online discussions do not refer to original sources; any error or conjecture made in one source gets passed on to the next uncritically.

I might add that all of these quotations are so short and sweet that Paul and Luke might not have actually consulted the texts in question; they may be simply quoting from memory or from popular lore.

That is about all I can do working from internet sources alone.

Ben.

DCHindley

Thanks Ben.

I have to agree that many online resources and even printed refrence books seem to repeat assertions made at other online sites or other resource books, and virtually none actually tell you where to find the original text or even an English tranlation.

This was also the problem I ran into when looking up info about Patmos island. All sources, both internet and printed, asserted quite confidently that Patmos was a place for exiles in Roman times. It took a lot of digging to find that Tacitus mentions three other Aegean islands were so used, but neither he nor any other surviving ancient source confirm "John's" statement that Patmos served this purpose as well.

Fun fun.

DCH

DCHindley

Interesting that all of these NT quotations of or allusions to Pagan works (except 1 Cor 15:33, Menander, Thais fragment 218 [Kock]) stressed worship of Zeus as a kind of universal god.

If one were to read through volumes 2 & 3.1 of the revised edition of Emil Schurer's Jewish People in the Age of Jesus Christ one can find plenty of inscriptional and literary evidence that many pagans viewed the Jewish God as a manifestation of Zeus, and many Hellenized Jews were willing to let them believe so for the sake of client-patron relationships between Jews and gentiles.

Does anyone here think that this kind of pan-universalism influenced some early Christians? I can see it WRT gentile followers of Paul, since I look on his movement as one that promoted closer relationship between gentiles and Jews, with the Christology found in his letters reflecting the beliefs of a radical wing of the gentile followers of Jesus who had already transformed Jesus into a kind of cult figure that might appeal to those who worship the god "Most High" (also, I think, associated with Zeus).

DCH

Aratus, Phaenomena (1-5):

From Zeus let us begin; him do we mortals never leave unnamed;
full of Zeus are all the streets and all the market-places of men;
full is the sea and the havens thereof;
always we all have need of Zeus.
For we are also his offspring;

http://www.theoi.com/Text/AratusPhaenomena.html

The quatrain [of Epiminedes,

“They fashioned a tomb for thee, O high and holy one, the Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies! But thou art not dead; thou livest and abidest forever; for in thee we live and move and have our being,”]

is quoted in a Syriac version by the ninth-century commentator Isho'dad (ed. M. D. Gibson, Horae Semiticae, X [Cambridge, 1913], p. 40.).

[This work apparently attributed the quotation to a work called Cretica.]

A similar sentiment appears in Callimachus's Hymn to Zeus (lines 7-8): "Cretans are always liars: For the Cretans, O King, actually fashioned a tomb for thee. But thou hast not died; thou art for ever."

Both of the above statements come from The Book of the Acts by Frederick Fyvie Bruce, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 1988, Page 339, Note 75

Most glorious of the immortals, invoked by many names, ever all-powerful,
Zeus, the First Cause of Nature, who rules all things with Law,
Hail! It is right for mortals to call upon you,
since from you we have our being, we whose lot it is to be God's image,
we alone of all mortal creatures that live and move upon the earth.
Accordingly, I will praise you with my hymn and ever sing of your might.
The whole universe, spinning around the earth,
goes wherever you lead it and is willingly guided by you.
So great is the servant which you hold in your invincible hands,
your eternal, two-edged, lightning-forked thunderbolt.
By its strokes all the works of nature came to be established,
and with it you guide the universal Word of Reason which moves through all creation,
mingling with the great sun and the small stars.
O God, without you nothing comes to be on earth,
neither in the region of the heavenly poles, nor in the sea,
except what evil men do in their folly.
But you know how to make extraordinary things suitable,
and how to bring order forth from chaos; and even that which is unlovely is lovely to you.
For thus you have joined all things, the good with the bad, into one,
so that the eternal Word of all came to be one.
This Word, however, evil mortals flee, poor wretches;
though they are desirous of good things for their possession,
they neither see nor listen to God's universal Law;
and yet, if they obey it intelligently, they would have the good life.
But they are senselessly driven to one evil after another:
some are eager for fame, no matter how godlessly it is acquired;
others are set on making money without any orderly principles in their lives;
and others are bent on ease and on the pleasures and delights of the body.
They do these foolish things, time and again,
and are swept along, eagerly defeating all they really wish for.
O Zeus, giver of all, shrouded in dark clouds and holding the vivid bright lightning,
rescue men from painful ignorance.
Scatter that ignorance far from their hearts.
and deign to rule all things in justice.
so that, honored in this way, we may render honor to you in return,
and sing your deeds unceasingly, as befits mortals;
for there is no greater glory for men
or for gods than to justly praise the universal Word of Reason.

Cleanthes' Hymn to Zeus (tr. M. A. C. Ellery, 1976) Cleanthes (331-232 B.C.) was a disciple of Zeno the Stoic. He considered the universe a living being and said that god was the soul of the universe and the sun its heart.
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/cityli...thes_hymn.html

mountainman

Dear DCHindley (and Ben),

Rivetting stuff. Great work.

Think of a tree with a trunk and branches.
This kind of pan-universalism was its trunk.
How could the branch of christianity fail to have been influenced?

Best wishes,


Pete


In the third century CE the author Philostratus narrates an equivalent belief in his *** history *** of The Life of Apollonius of Tyana where he has the following conversation take place:

Please note that I refer to the work as a *** history *** because this is precisely what Eusebius calls it dozens of times over in his polemical diatribe against the pagans who followed the son of Apollo, the son of Zeus.

GakuseiDon

I think that all religions influenced by Platonism had this "high" view of God. The higher and more remote their view of God became, the more that the different views began to converge. Thus Judaism's Platonic God wasn't that much different from the Greek philosphers' view of Zeus and the pagan gods. Plutarch, for example, writes this about Osiris:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...Osiris*/E.html

[Osiris] himself is far removed from the earth, uncontaminated and unpolluted and pure from all matter that is subject to destruction and death; but for the souls of men here, which are compassed about by bodies and emotions, there is no association with this god except in so far as they may attain to a dim vision of his presence by means of the apperception which philosophy affords.

This is not so different from the Jewish and Christian philosophers' God, and they all sprang from the same source: the Platonic idea that God must somehow be perfect and beyond this world. This led to a problem, though: it didn't make sense for a perfect and pure God to interact with the temporary and the imperfect, so how did this occur?

There were two solutions:
1. A "Logos". This is the utterance from the ineffable God that was the instrument in creating and/or maintaining this world.
2. A "ministering" class of intermediate beings: the daemons. These were beings who floated in the air and around pagan holy sites, and could deliver messages from and to the gods. Some daemons in fact pretended to be the gods themselves.

This is the framework in which early Christianity developed. The Logos became associated with Christ, and the daemons with devils and angels.