Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 01-19-2007, 04:09 PM

Has anyone figures out what 1 Corinthians 15 means?

Quote:

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one untimely born.

First, does this mean that Paul was untimely born, or Jesus?

I have heard it explained as meaning that Jesus appeared to Paul as a deformed person. What the hell could that mean?

GenesisNemesis · 01-19-2007, 04:13 PM

Maybe it means baptized?

:huh:

John Kesler · 01-19-2007, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

First, does this mean that Paul was untimely born, or Jesus? I have heard it explained as meaning that Jesus appeared to Paul as a deformed person. What the hell could that mean?

The New Jerome Biblical Commentary, paperback edition, page 812, commentary on 15:8:

Quote:

as if to an abortion: Possibly a term of abuse used by paul's opponents, who mocked his physical appearance (2 Cor 10:10) and denied his apostleship (1 Cor 9:1-18).

And from here, quoting Barrett, C.K. A Commentary on the First Epistle to the Corinthians 2nd ed.:

Quote:

The Greek word literally means a miscarried fetus, so it had a secondary meaning: an object of horror and disgust. Here it may be a term of contempt used by Paul’s opponents who denied his apostleship: see 1 Corinthians 9:1-18. In 2 Corinthians 10:10, Paul quotes his detractors as saying “‘his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible’”

Malachi151 · 01-19-2007, 04:38 PM

So is Paul the one who is "untimely born", or Jesus?

Toto · 01-19-2007, 04:46 PM

No one is sure what this means, except it clearly did not mean that Paul was born too late to know Jesus.

See this prior discussion, Will Durant on Jesus, or search the archives for other places where this has been discussed.

"Untimely born" is the term chosen to translate the Greek ektrwma, which refers to a miscarriage, or to being born dead - that is, born before the fetus is fully formed. The term was used by the Gnostics:

Quote:

Now "the abortion" is a technical and oft-repeated term of one of the great systems of the Gnosis, a term which enters into the main fabric of the Sophia-mythus.

In the mystic cosmogony of these Gnostic circles, "the abortion" was the crude matter cast out of the Pleroma or world of perfection. This crude and chaotic matter was in the cosmogonical process shaped into a perfect "aeon'' by the World-Christ; that is to say, was made into a world-system by the ordering or cosmic power of the Logos. "The abortion" was the unshaped and unordered chaotic matter which had to be separated out, ordered and perfected, in the macrocosmic task of the "enformation according to substance," while this again was to be completed on the soteriological side by the microcosmic process of the "enformation according to gnosis" or spiritual consciousness. As the world-soul was perfected by the World-Christ, so was the individual soul to be perfected and redeemed by the individual Christ.

From Did Jesus Live 100 B.C.? by G. R. S. Mead (an early 20th c. Theosophist and associate of Madame Blavatsky.)

Toto · 01-19-2007, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

So is Paul the one who is "untimely born", or Jesus?

Paul, clearly. Paul is saying that Jesus appeared to him, Paul, wretch that he was.

Jesus is perfect, Paul is the wretched mess.

Malachi151 · 01-20-2007, 06:26 AM

So basically, this is just a way of Paul saying again that he is the lowest of the apostles....

Mythra · 01-20-2007, 07:07 AM

I had always taken it to mean that Paul regretted that he had missed the boat. That he was a late comer who didn't have the same advantage as the other apostles. (the advantage of having known Jesus when he was on earth)

If this is the meaning of it, it presents another problem for mythicists.

Mythra · 01-20-2007, 07:11 AM

I don't see it as referring to Jesus because of the word "to".

He appeared to me as to one untimely born.

If it had been referring to Jesus, wouldn't it have read

He appeared to me as one untimely born.

Not sure how the greek reads.

Malachi151 · 01-20-2007, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythra

I had always taken it to mean that Paul regretted that he had missed the boat. That he was a late comer who didn't have the same advantage as the other apostles. (the advantage of having known Jesus when he was on earth)

If this is the meaning of it, it presents another problem for mythicists.

I'm not sure what you mean by "this", but the interpretation that is espoused in the thread very much helps the mythicist case. We know that Paul didn't actually see any resurrection of Jesus, so what is is talking about here is definitely visions.

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01-19-2007, 04:13 PM	#2
GenesisNemesis Contributor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A pale blue oblate spheroid. Posts: 20,351	Maybe it means baptized? :huh:

01-19-2007, 04:38 PM	#4
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	So is Paul the one who is "untimely born", or Jesus?

01-20-2007, 06:26 AM	#7
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	So basically, this is just a way of Paul saying again that he is the lowest of the apostles....

01-20-2007, 07:07 AM	#8
Mythra Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: BFE Posts: 416	I had always taken it to mean that Paul regretted that he had missed the boat. That he was a late comer who didn't have the same advantage as the other apostles. (the advantage of having known Jesus when he was on earth) If this is the meaning of it, it presents another problem for mythicists.

01-20-2007, 07:11 AM	#9
Mythra Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: BFE Posts: 416	I don't see it as referring to Jesus because of the word "to". He appeared to me as to one untimely born. If it had been referring to Jesus, wouldn't it have read He appeared to me as one untimely born. Not sure how the greek reads.

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