Freethought & Rationalism Archive

bwcourtn · 04-25-2005, 02:58 PM

Hey, what is you people's answer to this, particularly the evidence for a lunar eclipse on being visible on Jerusalem on passover? I got this off Hank Hanegraaff's website (CRI):

Quote:

"DID THE SUN GO DARK AND THE MOON TURN TO BLOOD?

In Peter’s sermon on Pentecost, he quoted a prophecy in Joel which said that the sun would become dark and the moon would turn to blood before the day of the Lord. Peter claimed that this prophecy had been fulfilled in his day and time. But when did these events really take place?

Matthew, Mark, and even Luke all mention that the sun became dark at Christ’s crucifixion [Matt. 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44-45]. This doesn’t mean that the sun ceased to give light. Nor did it refer to an eclipse of the sun by the moon. Rather, it was probably caused by a dust storm.

. . .

[copyright material snipped to fair use - see link in post #3]

Gooch's dad · 04-25-2005, 03:11 PM

If there was a dust storm that made it so dark that it was like nighttime, then how the hell did they SEE this "blood red moon"?

So much for that silly (and copyrighted) bit of nonsense. Next?

Toto · 04-25-2005, 03:17 PM

Available here in pdf format: CRI

Is there any evidence of a dust storm on that date that would have made the sun seem to go dark?

Is there anything in that essay to answer?

Mageth · 04-25-2005, 03:27 PM

Quote:

"However, now, beyond reasonable doubt, we know that the moon did “turn to blood�? and it was on the very day that Christ died... And now scientists have discovered that a lunar eclipse occurred and was visible from Jerusalem on Friday, April 3, A.D. 33. Incidentally, this day was a Passover, and on independent examination it’s the most likely date of the Crucifixion."

According to some calculations, there was perhaps a partial eclipse,of Umbral magnitude 0.586 (meaning about half the moon is covered), on April 3, 33 CE. And it would have been visible in the region at moonrise:

http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclips...LEhistory.html
http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclips...0033Apr03P.gif

And we for sure don't know "beyond reasonable doubt" that Jesus was crucified on April 3, 33 CE. :huh: In fact, other information from the NT makes that particular date rather doubtful, IIRC.

Quote:

You see, in ancient idiom the “moon turning to blood�? was a reference to the moon turning blood-red during a lunar eclipse.

That's really strongly evident only during a full or near-full eclipse, though. I don't think the moon takes on its characteristic "blood red" look in a partial eclipse. So try again. (In any case, the prophecy wasn't that "half the moon will turn to blood"

)

It would seem that God would have arranged for a full eclipse for maximum effect and maximum prophecy fulfillment, no?

Quote:

Not only this, but a dust storm in the afternoon (especially one that would have obscured the sun’s light) would also have intensified the reddening effect of the lunar eclipse, making the blood-red coloring of the moon even more dramatic.

Gee whiz, so would covering the entire earth with red cellophane...

Quote:

In and of themselves, a dust storm and a lunar eclipse are not overtly supernatural. However, the fact that they happened on the very same day — the day of Christ’s death — provides powerful evidence that Christ’s death was, as the Gospel writers clearly claimed, a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.

Whoa...hold on a minute...they went from "there may have been a dust storm on a day when there was a lunar eclipse, a day that Jesus may have been crucified" to "there was both a duststorm and a lunar eclipse on the day that Jesus was crucified".

Sheesh. What wishful thinking will do to people...

Anat · 04-25-2005, 03:34 PM

Though both spring and autumn are seasons in which sand/dust-storms are common in the relevant area, I haven't seen one that seriously diminished normal daylight, despite finding everything at home covered with sand.

ETA: Are the authors aware that Passover is held on the full moon? Are they aware of the position of the moon when it is full?

Mageth · 04-25-2005, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

Though both spring and autumn are seasons in which sand/dust-storms are common in the relevant area, I haven't seen one that seriously diminished normal daylight, despite finding everything at home covered with sand.

These wishful thinkers never let simple things like facts or logic get in their way when they're making shit up or shoehorning stuff in to fit their fairy tales.

Mageth · 04-25-2005, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

ETA: Are the authors aware that Passover is held on the full moon? Are they aware of the position of the moon when it is full?

A lunar eclipse is possible (only) when the moon is full, but a solar eclipse is not, only being possible when the moon is new.

Wallener · 04-25-2005, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

TAre the authors aware that Passover is held on the full moon?

I have heard a Christian claim that Jews changed the definition of Passover in an attempt to make the gospel look bad. When it comes to this stuff, absolutely nothing would surprise me...

Anat · 04-25-2005, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mageth

A lunar eclipse is possible (only) when the moon is full, but a solar eclipse is not, only being possible when the moon is new.

Oh, OK, lunar, not solar eclipse. Never mind. (I was confusing with other apologists, sorry)

Mageth · 04-25-2005, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

Oh, OK, lunar, not solar eclipse. Never mind. (I was confusing with other apologists, sorry)

I figured that was the case. I've heard the solar eclipse explanation for the darkening of the sun before - which conveniently overlooks the fact that Passover coincides with the moon being in full phase.

A case of conflicting fairy tales...

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04-25-2005, 03:11 PM	#2
Gooch's dad Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Madison WI USA Posts: 3,508	If there was a dust storm that made it so dark that it was like nighttime, then how the hell did they SEE this "blood red moon"? So much for that silly (and copyrighted) bit of nonsense. Next?

04-25-2005, 03:17 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Available here in pdf format: CRI Is there any evidence of a dust storm on that date that would have made the sun seem to go dark? Is there anything in that essay to answer?

04-25-2005, 03:34 PM	#5
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	Though both spring and autumn are seasons in which sand/dust-storms are common in the relevant area, I haven't seen one that seriously diminished normal daylight, despite finding everything at home covered with sand. ETA: Are the authors aware that Passover is held on the full moon? Are they aware of the position of the moon when it is full?

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