Freethought & Rationalism Archive

bornagainskeptic · 03-31-2005, 06:14 AM

The Gospels say there was a three hour solar eclipse around the time Jesus finally died after getting himself nailed to a couple of pieces of wood. Just a few very obvious problems, of course. A solar eclipse can't go for three hours, and a total solar eclipse can't go for more than twelve minutes. Another catch is that Jesus was executed during Passover, when there was a full moon. You can't have a solar eclipse when there is a full moon because the moon is on the wrong side of the earth from the sun. And finally, a incredible event like a three hour solar eclipse would surely have been recorded by non-Christrian contempory writers - but not one of them does.

Godless Wonder · 03-31-2005, 06:20 AM

I found this page: http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclips...SEhistory.html

The eclipse on 0033 Mar 19 seems to be around the right date, but, there is also this problem: Not visible from the site of the crucifixion. The one on 0029 Nov 24 would be though.

Bigger picture here.

Oh, and at least according the the "cal" command, these eclipses both happened on Thursdays.

Code:

$ cal 11 0029
     November 29
Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
       1  2  3  4  5
 6  7  8  9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30

$ cal 3 0033
      March 33
Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
 1  2  3  4  5  6  7
 8  9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30 31

Jack the Bodiless · 03-31-2005, 06:24 AM

I think it's good evidence that the gospels were written decades later.

There was, in fact, a total solar eclipse in the region: in 29 AD (and in November IIRC). It seems that the gospels were written sufficiently late for this to get incorporated into the story and moved to Passover without contradicting memories of the real event.

RomanNiucumir · 03-31-2005, 04:32 PM

Everytime the eclipse is mentioned I recall something Beatrice said in Dante's Paradisio, about how the Jews denied that an eclipse happened because there is no recorded instance. Her response? 'A LIE!!! The whole world saw it, etc.'

Vorkosigan · 03-31-2005, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

I think it's good evidence that the gospels were written decades later.

There was, in fact, a total solar eclipse in the region: in 29 AD (and in November IIRC). It seems that the gospels were written sufficiently late for this to get incorporated into the story and moved to Passover without contradicting memories of the real event.

The darkness comes from Amos, Jack, and is a common motif for the death of heroes in antiquity. Nothing natural about it. The search for an eclipse represents two common approaches to the Gospels -- finding a naturalistic origin for what is essentially literary invention, and reading into the Gospels more information than their writers have, or need to have, to make up their stories.

TruthCounsellor · 03-31-2005, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bornagainskeptic

The Gospels say there was a three hour solar eclipse around the time Jesus finally died after getting himself nailed to a couple of pieces of wood. Just a few very obvious problems, of course. A solar eclipse can't go for three hours, and a total solar eclipse can't go for more than twelve minutes. Another catch is that Jesus was executed during Passover, when there was a full moon. You can't have a solar eclipse when there is a full moon because the moon is on the wrong side of the earth from the sun. And finally, a incredible event like a three hour solar eclipse would surely have been recorded by non-Christrian contempory writers - but not one of them does.

I recently read the suggestion that there might have been massive sun spots, attributing not only to the extended length of time the sun was darkened, but also to what would have appeared as a "blood red" moon.

TC

S.C.Carlson · 03-31-2005, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bornagainskeptic

Another catch is that Jesus was executed during Passover, when there was a full moon. You can't have a solar eclipse when there is a full moon because the moon is on the wrong side of the earth from the sun.

That's almost exactly what Julius Africanus said about the interpretation that the darkness was a solar eclipse in the early third century:

Quote:

This event followed each of his deeds, and healings of body and soul, and knowledge of hidden things, and his resurrection from the dead, all sufficiently proven to the disciples before us and to his apostles: after the most dreadful darkness fell over the whole world, the rocks were torn apart by an earthquake and much of Judaea and the rest of the land was torn down. Thallus calls this darkness an eclipse of the sun in the third book of his Histories, without reason it seems to me. For....how are we to believe that an eclipse happened when the moon was diametrically opposite the sun?

(I'm inclined to believe, however, that Thallus did not actually make this or any comment about the gospels, but rather Africanus was refuting someone who cited Thallus for support of the eclipse interpretation of the darkness described in the gospels.)

More is discussed in the Thallus thread.

Toto · 03-31-2005, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TruthCounsellor

I recently read the suggestion that there might have been massive sun spots, attributing not only to the extended length of time the sun was darkened, but also to what would have appeared as a "blood red" moon.

TC

Like this argument?

Quote:

When detailed scriptural evidence from the time period of Passover through Pentecost of that year is combined with scientific evidence there is another possibility that seems not yet approached. It is extreme sunspot activity. Sunspots when viewed by the observer from earth are dark spots yet when viewed in spectral photography they range from bright red on the edges to very dark red at the centers. Sunspots can grow at times doubling their size within one half of a day according to modern scientific observations. Sunspots lower the radiance of the sun. Massive sunspot activity would significantly darken the sun and cast a dark red light beyond earth onto a full moon making it appear to be blood red.

Rather unlikely. Ancient Chinese astronomers observed sunspots with their naked eyes, but measuring changes in radiance of the sun takes modern instruments.

TruthCounsellor · 03-31-2005, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Like this argument?

Rather unlikely. Ancient Chinese astronomers observed sunspots with their naked eyes, but measuring changes in radiance of the sun takes modern instruments.

Yes. It seems a bit of a stretch, but WTHDIK? I'm no astronomer. Unlikely? Sure. But can anyone confidently say it's impossible?

TC

Godless Wonder · 03-31-2005, 07:41 PM

I think I may have a T-shirt made that says "Ignorance is not an excuse to believe random crap."

03-31-2005, 06:14 AM	#1
bornagainskeptic Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 21	A solar eclipse? The Gospels say there was a three hour solar eclipse around the time Jesus finally died after getting himself nailed to a couple of pieces of wood. Just a few very obvious problems, of course. A solar eclipse can't go for three hours, and a total solar eclipse can't go for more than twelve minutes. Another catch is that Jesus was executed during Passover, when there was a full moon. You can't have a solar eclipse when there is a full moon because the moon is on the wrong side of the earth from the sun. And finally, a incredible event like a three hour solar eclipse would surely have been recorded by non-Christrian contempory writers - but not one of them does.

03-31-2005, 06:20 AM	#2
Godless Wonder Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,197	I found this page: http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclips...SEhistory.html The eclipse on 0033 Mar 19 seems to be around the right date, but, there is also this problem: Not visible from the site of the crucifixion. The one on 0029 Nov 24 would be though. Bigger picture here. Oh, and at least according the the "cal" command, these eclipses both happened on Thursdays. Code: $ cal 11 0029 November 29 Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 $ cal 3 0033 March 33 Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-31-2005, 06:24 AM	#3
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	I think it's good evidence that the gospels were written decades later. There was, in fact, a total solar eclipse in the region: in 29 AD (and in November IIRC). It seems that the gospels were written sufficiently late for this to get incorporated into the story and moved to Passover without contradicting memories of the real event.

03-31-2005, 04:32 PM	#4
RomanNiucumir Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 102	Everytime the eclipse is mentioned I recall something Beatrice said in Dante's Paradisio, about how the Jews denied that an eclipse happened because there is no recorded instance. Her response? 'A LIE!!! The whole world saw it, etc.'

03-31-2005, 07:41 PM	#10
Godless Wonder Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,197	I think I may have a T-shirt made that says "Ignorance is not an excuse to believe random crap."

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.