Thomas II

Wait,answer my question first...Wasn't Jesus saying there that he was not God?

Regarding your question, "good" or "bad" are relative terms that would not apply to a god who is said to transcend the relative world. I don't have a concept of the religious god. To me to say that god is good is like saying
the law of gravity is good...In itself it is neither good nor bad. It simply is.
Some see that neutrality as "good" because at least it has no bad intentions.

jemand

I really don't understand that.

I don't think it's possible to empirically prove or disprove the existance of a good God. Several years ago I came to this conclusion and assumed that there was a God, and have lived my life acording to this fact. Therefore, any evidence I've come across to support the supposition that God is good is really just begging the question. But I think any kindness there is in humans is just a reflection of the goodness of God.

Why the Bible? Partly because the prophecies it contains were fulfilled in the way it said they would be. Partly because it contains a lot of good common sense stuff. Partly because I haven't come across anything better yet.

(Originally Posted by jemand
but I also believe that that experience was clouded by their personal culture and biases, and the fact that they had to explain themselves using human language, which may not be able to convey much of the truth about God.)
confused again, sorry. Which argument does this help?

I believe God will judge everyone according to what they did with the amount of light they were shown. Yes, many Muslims and Hindus are aware of the Gospel, rejected it, and still are guided by their conciences. I think this is evidence that God has not rejected them. Many Christians twist the Gospel so much that it's no wonder people don't want to have anything to do with it. An eternally burning hell being an example.

jonesg

I don't suppose the consistent answer to most atheists, "its your defiance" , catches your attention.

Your questions are expressions of defiance and nothing less.
And not getting the answers you demand you can say "see I'm right".

If you're so right, why not just get on with your life then and forget all this nonesense, or are you waiting with the reindeer...on the roof and full of doubt.?

Johnny Skeptic

Please give me two examples of prophecies that were made and fulfilled in the Old Testament.

So do some other world views.

I believe that agnosticism is better than any other world view. Historically, the vast majority of people have followed all sorts of religions because they want to have a well-defined reason for living in this life, and because they want to eventually enjoy a comfortable eternal life. Belief in religion has emotional benefits, but the benefits are not based upon logic and reason.

A good conscience indicates good works. Are you saying the good works guarantee salvation? What tangible evidence do you have that God was good in tangible ways 2,000 years ago, and that he is still good in tangible ways today?

jemand

Isa 44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isa 45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

This is exactly what happened, when the Persians came to Babylon, they diverted the river and walked directly into the city. The gates were not shut as they should have been, the king before him was partying. Then Cyrus did give the decree to rebuild Jerusalem.

Another example could be Daniel’s prophetic vision, predicting the fall of Babylon, the rise of Medo-Persia, then Greece, then the Romans. This takes some symbolic interpretation though it is rather clear.

What benefits does agnosticism offer?


I don’t think good works necessarily guarantee salvation. I think a Christian who is saved will automatically do good works, not to earn salvation, but because of it. In the same way, I think anyone who is truly following the light they have been shown will be kind to others and “do good works� not necessarily to “earn salvation,� but because it is a natural consequence of seeking salvation.

Johnny Skeptic

You didn't answer my question. What evidence do you have that God was good in tangible ways 2,000 years ago, and that he is still good in tangible ways today?"

Wads4

"Christians assume too much about the nature of God "

Christians assume too much when they assert that there is such a person.

Wads4

"Isa 44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isa 45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

This is exactly what happened, when the Persians came to Babylon, they diverted the river and walked directly into the city. The gates were not shut as they should have been, the king before him was partying. Then Cyrus did give the decree to rebuild Jerusalem.

Another example could be Daniel’s prophetic vision, predicting the fall of Babylon, the rise of Medo-Persia, then Greece, then the Romans. This takes some symbolic interpretation though it is rather clear.

But if all of this was written up AFTER the events, "in order that the prophecies might be fulfilled",-then it would not be prophetic after all would it? Apparently this happened all the time. Another example was Jesus riding into Jerusalem on an ass and a colt, the foal of an ass, in order that the OT prophecy in Zechariah 9:9 would be fulfilled.
I ask you which is more likely: that the so-called prophets used this literary trick of backwards revision, or that they all were clairvoyant?

"

Johnny Skeptic

Message to Jemand:

I still need for you to provide evidence that Jesus helped people in tangible ways, and that God is good in tangible ways today. Logically, there is no automatic correlation that can be made between the ability to rise from the dead, the ability to predict the future, and goodness.

In the NIV, John 10:37-38 say "Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." The verses cite “tangible� evidence of Jesus’ power.

More “tangible� evidence comes from Acts 14:3 and Matthew 14:14. Acts 14:3 says "So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders.� Matthew 14:14 says "When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick."

We need compassion in tangible ways today just as much as people did back then. Where is tangible evidence of God's power and compassion in tangible ways today? An unusual healing can happen to anyone, not just to Christians. In the world today, there is every indication that tangible good things and bad things are not distributed equitably, and that they are distributed according to the laws of physics, not by divine intervention. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that 1) God used to be compassionate in noticeably tangible ways but is not interested in being compassionate in noticeably tangible ways today, or that 2) he never was compassionate in noticeably tangible ways, or that 3) he does not exist.

jemand

Have you taken the time and work to provide the "tangible" evidences of God's goodness 2,000 years ago? If so, thanks. If what you posted isn't enough, what more do you want?

As for today. Well, first off, who says God only gives "tangible" good things to his followers? Jesus didn't always ask first whether someone believed before he gave them a "tangible" benefit. In fact, that physical benefit in many cases probably preceded a reordering of the life and priorities in the recipient, and afterwards they began to believe. Not always though.

So, if I said all unusual healings are evedence that God is good would you be happy? I doubt it. Is the fact that I'm alive a tangible benefit? I would say yes. The fact that I can think? I would say yes again. There's a whole lot that I see in the world and in my life that I consider as coming from a benevolant God. However, as I stated before, I think this is due in part to my assuption that God exists. If I did not think God existed, I would see the world in an entirely different light.