MarkA

Is there any independent evidence that Passover was celebrated, or any memory of enslavement and the subsequent escape from Egypt, by the Jewish people before the reign of Josiah?

Nihilus

The Torah.

spin

The question stated "before the reign of Josiah".

Now riddle me this: when Deut 28:68a says, "The lord will bring you back in ships to Egypt, by a route that I promised you would never see again", when did Jews ever go to Egypt "in ships"?


spin

Nihilus

Josiah reigned well after the Torah was completed. You may be thinking of Joshua.

This is not referring to the exodus. Rather, it is referring to a return to Egypt after the promised land had already been conquered.

"When Jerusalem was taken by Titus, many of the captives, which were above seventeen years of age, were sent into the works in Egypt. See Josephus, Antiq., b. xii, 100:1, 2, War b. vi., c. 9, s. 2; and above all, see Bp. Newton's Dissertations on the Prophecies."

http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/28-68.htm

spin

Referring to returning to Egypt in ships again.

I'll ask again, when did the Jews first go to Egypt in ships, as referred to in this verse?


spin

semiopen

I'm not sure what you mean by independent evidence. So far as I know there is no independent evidence of it being celebrated in the time of Josiah.

Chronicles gives an account of Passover during the reign of Hezekiah -

This is most interesting because the calendar is fucked up but the historicity of the story seems dubious.

We could trust Josiah if he actually had Deuteronomy, which is reasonable. Personally I'm not sure.

If you could clarify the independent evidence for Josiah, I'd be very interested in knowing what it is.

stephan huller

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1517947

No one has been able to figure this out as far as I know. I will see if Marqe has any explanation for this but I doubt it. My guess is that the Alexandrian Christian tradition saw this as related to their 'sojourn' in Alexandria. It contains a very important scriptural text for Justin Martyr and other early Fathers:

And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to cause you to perish, and to destroy you; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest in to possess it.

And the LORD shall scatter thee among all peoples, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou nor thy fathers, even wood and stone.

And among these nations shalt thou have no repose, and there shall be no rest for the sole of thy foot; but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and languishing of soul.
And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear night and day, and shalt have no assurance of thy life.

In the morning thou shalt say: 'Would it were even!' and at even thou shalt say: 'Would it were morning!' for the fear of thy heart which thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.

And the LORD shall bring thee back into Egypt in ships, by the way whereof I said unto thee: 'Thou shalt see it no more again'; and there ye shall sell yourselves unto your enemies for bondmen and for bondwoman, and no man shall buy you.

Again I am not saying this was the original interpretation but I think it was how an Alexandrian centered Christian community would have intepreted the text - that it foretold that after the Passion 'Israel' would be found again sojourning in Egypt.

Interesting question, spin.

Nihilus

Not sure. Why is this important?

MarkA

To expand my question.

There seems to be some question if Josiah found one book or the first five books of the OT. My question really centres around the political situation during Josiah's rule.

How would a king motivate his people to oppose the Egyptians whose power seemed so much greater than theirs? Give them a tale of how they once were enslaved in an even mightier Egypt and they were ultimately victorious because they had god on their side. Perform the correct rites and god will again help them smite the Egyptians.

Where did this myth come from? Was it born fully formed from the stylus of Josiah's scribe or was it in existence in some form beforehand? Is their any archaeological evidence for the existence of the myth before this time?

show_no_mercy

There's some discussion about that in this thread: When did Moses live, if at all?

Also, check out the Dunedin school (defunct blog): Ten Reasons for Dating Deuteronomy to the Late Persian or Hellenistic Periods