Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Imaginary Mark · 07-16-2005, 08:19 PM

Curious what the various viewpoints are here.

What's your best guess on how people came to believe in the resurrection?

Personally, my vote is "People imagined seeing him and believed he was resurrected." Mary Magdelene, in a state of shock and grief had some sort of experience that she came to believe was Jesus appearing to her from beyond the grave. And not just from beyond the grave but that he somehow lived on. This brought her great comfort. Some of the other people believed her, some didn't. The story spread and grew.

I freely admit that this is not a very informed opinion. Just my current view.

Diogenes the Cynic · 07-16-2005, 09:46 PM

I picked the third option but I think the first is possible as well. I'm undecided on the existence of HJ but either way there's no real evidence that a single person ever claimed to have seen him physically arisen from the dead.

youngalexander · 07-16-2005, 10:37 PM

If this was anyone other than the deity of the major religion of western civilisation, we would find the evidence for a HJ unconvincing.
No non-christian evidence, canonical fables and the best credentialled advocate (Paul) knows nothing about HJ.

Chris Weimer · 07-16-2005, 10:42 PM

I went with the liberal Christian? stance. I think that it's rooted in some history, but of course, I think the gospel are mostly fiction as well. So I wouldn't exactly describe it as "Christian".

Joan of Bark · 07-17-2005, 12:22 AM

One believer claimed to have seen him, and garnered so much attention that others chimed in to be a part of the story.

John Kesler · 07-17-2005, 05:38 AM

Quote:

youngalexander:
If this was anyone other than the deity of the major religion of western civilisation, we would find the evidence for a HJ unconvincing.

I think that the opposite is true. It is precisely because of this fact that Jesus' historicity is challenged. The Messianic candidate "the Egyptian" is referenced only in Josephus and Acts 21:38, yet I don't see people demanding more proof that such a person existed.

Diogenes the Cynic · 07-17-2005, 10:50 AM

No one claims that the Egyptian did miracles and came back to life. No, the very nature of the claims about Jesus make them highly suspect and the lack of credible corroboration even more so. If this was any other mythological character who was alleged to have been a god incarnate who did magic tricks, he would be dismissed out of hand. Historical claims which are IMPOSSIBLE are always assumed by historians to be false. That includes some claims by historians like Josephus and Herodotus.

John Kesler · 07-17-2005, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Diogenes the Cynic:
No one claims that the Egyptian did miracles and came back to life. No, the very nature of the claims about Jesus make them highly suspect and the lack of credible corroboration even more so.

I agree that some of the claims about Jesus are suspect, but to say that this invalidates Jesus' historical existence seems to me a non sequitur. If I make "highly suspect" claims about George W. Bush, does he cease to be a historical figure?

Amaleq13 · 07-17-2005, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

If I make "highly suspect" claims about George W. Bush, does he cease to be a historical figure?

It certainly casts doubt on whether we should consider your claims to be historically reliable. If such claims are all that existed about George W. Bush, we would seem to have no good reason to consider the individual to be historical. At the very least, we would have good reason to question his historicity.

Y.B · 07-17-2005, 12:02 PM

I chose other.

There could have been a historical Jesus. If there was, he could have been crucified, or he could have died of something else. The resurrection part is a myth that was prolly added later.

View Poll Results: What is your theory about the resurrection?
(Mythicist) there was no historical Jesus, so no death.	26	47.27%
There was a historical Jesus but he wasn't killed. Died of old age or something else.	2	3.64%
There was a historical Jesus. He was killed. Nobody thought he was resurrected.	8	14.55%
(Christian) There was a historical Jesus. He was killed. He was physically resurrected.	1	1.82%
(Liberal Christian?) There was a historical Jesus. He was killed. He was spiritually resurrected.	1	1.82%
There was a historical Jesus. He was killed. People imagined seeing him and believed he was resurrected.	10	18.18%
There was a historical Jesus. He was killed. People saw someone else and believed he was resurrected.	0	0%
There was a historical Jesus. He was killed. People believed he was resurrected for some other reason.	3	5.45%
Other.	4	7.27%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

07-16-2005, 08:19 PM	#1
Imaginary Mark Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: rantsnraves.org Posts: 2,273	What is your theory about the resurrection? Curious what the various viewpoints are here. What's your best guess on how people came to believe in the resurrection? Personally, my vote is "People imagined seeing him and believed he was resurrected." Mary Magdelene, in a state of shock and grief had some sort of experience that she came to believe was Jesus appearing to her from beyond the grave. And not just from beyond the grave but that he somehow lived on. This brought her great comfort. Some of the other people believed her, some didn't. The story spread and grew. I freely admit that this is not a very informed opinion. Just my current view.

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07-16-2005, 09:46 PM	#2
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	I picked the third option but I think the first is possible as well. I'm undecided on the existence of HJ but either way there's no real evidence that a single person ever claimed to have seen him physically arisen from the dead.

07-16-2005, 10:37 PM	#3
youngalexander Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mornington Peninsula Posts: 1,306	If this was anyone other than the deity of the major religion of western civilisation, we would find the evidence for a HJ unconvincing. No non-christian evidence, canonical fables and the best credentialled advocate (Paul) knows nothing about HJ.

07-16-2005, 10:42 PM	#4
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	I went with the liberal Christian? stance. I think that it's rooted in some history, but of course, I think the gospel are mostly fiction as well. So I wouldn't exactly describe it as "Christian".

07-17-2005, 12:22 AM	#5
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	One believer claimed to have seen him, and garnered so much attention that others chimed in to be a part of the story.

07-17-2005, 10:50 AM	#7
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	No one claims that the Egyptian did miracles and came back to life. No, the very nature of the claims about Jesus make them highly suspect and the lack of credible corroboration even more so. If this was any other mythological character who was alleged to have been a god incarnate who did magic tricks, he would be dismissed out of hand. Historical claims which are IMPOSSIBLE are always assumed by historians to be false. That includes some claims by historians like Josephus and Herodotus.

07-17-2005, 12:02 PM	#10
Y.B Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 6,457	I chose other. There could have been a historical Jesus. If there was, he could have been crucified, or he could have died of something else. The resurrection part is a myth that was prolly added later.

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