Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 01-14-2008, 01:04 PM

Message to sugarhitman: I would appreciate it if you would refrain from attacking me personally and stick to discussing Jewish history and God's actions. I would also appreciate it if you comment on all of my post and not be evasive as you frequently are. You claim that you are not evasive, and that you replied to my arguments on a number of occasions. That is false. For instance, I have asked to on numerous occasions to discuss why God broke his promise to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compenstion for his failure to defeat Tyre, but you have always conventiently refused to do so.

Ok, now can we please have a polite discussion in which you will reply to all of my arguments? Being agressive serves only to discredit you in the opinions of skeptics and the undecided crowd. Do you really expect to convince anyone of anything by being agressive?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Will you tell me that the wars over this land, and the condemnation of Israel by the world are all done to support the Bible?

Regarding conservative Christians, the correct answer is certainly "yes." Regarding non-Christians who supported the failed partition of Palestine, the correct answer is "no." Many non-Christians supported the partition of Palestine because the Jews had been persecuted by lots of people, NOT just because they were Jews, which proves that it was HUMAN SYMPATHY that accounted for the partition of Palestine, NOT God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

At the same time the Bible is being attacked by these same Global Government pushers in their home countries?

What in the world are you talking about? What Global Government pushers are opposed to the partition of Palestine.

If the Bible did not say anything about Jews, would anything about Jewish history indicate to you that God has been involved in Jewish history?

Why would God want to predict the future? You claim that you are not evasive, but you have continued refuse to discuss this very important issue. Unless you have some sensible reasons why God would want to predict the future, you lose. In courts trials, it is diffucult to convict a defendant unless a sensible motive can be established. The same is true of God. If not sensible motives can be established for what the does, he probably does not exist.

martini · 01-14-2008, 02:01 PM

ADDENDUM

it is positively ridiculous to suggest that the Christian and Jewish myths had nothing to do with the formation of Israel. the very fact that they carved out their new country on this supposed "holy land" of past repute was done SOLELY because that area was where they claimed Israel was based on their myths!

Johnny Skeptic · 01-14-2008, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martini

ADDENDUM

It is positively ridiculous to suggest that the Christian and Jewish myths had nothing to do with the formation of Israel. the very fact that they carved out their new country on this supposed "holy land" of past repute was done SOLELY because that area was where they claimed Israel was based on their myths!

Absolutely. Here is the proof:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/..._of_Indep.html

Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel (May 14, 1948)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewishvirtuallibrary.org

ERETZ-ISRAEL (the Land of Israel) was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and political identity was shaped. Here they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books.

After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom.

Impelled by this historic and traditional attachment, Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. In recent decades they returned in their masses. Pioneers, ma'pilim (immigrants coming to Eretz-Israel in defiance of restrictive legislation) and defenders, they made deserts bloom, revived the Hebrew language, built villages and towns, and created a thriving community controlling its own economy and culture, loving peace but knowing how to defend itself, bringing the blessings of progress to all the country's inhabitants, and aspiring towards independent nationhood.

In the year 5657 (1897), at the summons of the spiritual father of the Jewish State, Theodore Herzl, the First Zionist Congress convened and proclaimed the right of the Jewish people to national rebirth in its own country.

This right was recognized in the Balfour Declaration of the 2nd November, 1917, and re-affirmed in the Mandate of the League of Nations which, in particular, gave international sanction to the historic connection between the Jewish people and Eretz-Israel and to the right of the Jewish people to rebuild its National Home.

The catastrophe which recently befell the Jewish people — the massacre of millions of Jews in Europe — was another clear demonstration of the urgency of solving the problem of its homelessness by re-establishing in Eretz-Israel the Jewish State, which would open the gates of the homeland wide to every Jew and confer upon the Jewish people the status of a fully privileged member of the community of nations.

Survivors of the Nazi holocaust in Europe, as well as Jews from other parts of the world, continued to migrate to Eretz-Israel, undaunted by difficulties, restrictions and dangers, and never ceased to assert their right to a life of dignity, freedom and honest toil in their national homeland.

In the Second World War, the Jewish community of this country contributed its full share to the struggle of the freedom- and peace-loving nations against the forces of Nazi wickedness and, by the blood of its soldiers and its war effort, gained the right to be reckoned among the peoples who founded the United Nations.

On the 29th November, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel; the General Assembly required the inhabitants of Eretz-Israel to take such steps as were necessary on their part for the implementation of that resolution. This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their State is irrevocable.

This right is the natural right of the Jewish people to be masters of their own fate, like all other nations, in their own sovereign State.

All that it took for the Jews to establish a state in Palestine was military power, the same way that most land has been acquired during human history. There is nothing odd or unusual about religious zealots fighting over land with other religious zealots. Whoever has the most military power wins. It is as simple as that.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-15-2008, 07:13 AM

If God did not actually make a land promise to Abraham and his descendants, what is unusual about Jewish history that cannot easily be explained by secular means.

It is an absurd notion that a loving God would be concerned with dirt. All that land is is dirt. A loving God would concerned with a person's heart, not where they live.

What if we were to reverse the roles in Jewish/Muslim history, and it had been Muslims who were scattered and persecuted, and Muslims who Hitler killed? Under that scenario, would the U.S. and Britain have favored the creation of a Muslim state in Jerusalem, and favored Muslims controlling Jerusalem?

The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel says "
ERETZ-ISRAEL (the Land of Israel) was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and political identity was shaped. Here they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books.

"After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom."

Under my hypothetical scenario, it would have been fair for Muslims to use the same argument, which adequately refutes the claim that it was right to provide persecuted Jews with a homeland of their own in Palestine for humanitarian reasons aside from religious reasons.

WVIncagold · 01-15-2008, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

If God did not actually make a land promise to Abraham and his descendants, what is unusual about Jewish history that cannot easily be explained by secular means.

It is an absurd notion that a loving God would be concerned with dirt. All that land is is dirt. A loving God would concerned with a person's heart, not where they live.

What if we were to reverse the roles in Jewish/Muslim history, and it had been Muslims who were scattered and persecuted, and Muslims who Hitler killed? Under that scenario, would the U.S. and Britain have favored the creation of a Muslim state in Jerusalem, and favored Muslims controlling Jerusalem?

The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel says "
ERETZ-ISRAEL (the Land of Israel) was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and political identity was shaped. Here they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books.

"After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom."

Under my hypothetical scenario, it would have been fair for Muslims to use the same argument, which adequately refutes the claim that it was right to provide persecuted Jews with a homeland of their own in Palestine for humanitarian reasons aside from religious reasons.

very well said Johnny to bad the xtianist don't feal the same way about all bronze age cultures otherwise they would call for the restablishment of the american indian tribes and the lands we stole from them as well. but then again they aren't talked about in the bible now are they.

arnoldo · 01-15-2008, 09:25 AM

I've read the bible a couple of times and I don't want to start quoting scriptures but in general the only thing that prevents the Jews from getting wiped out of the face of the earth is the return of their Messiah, Yeshua. The bible states something along the lines that the Jews will look upon the one they have pierced and question where Yeshua got his wounds... and will believe.

arnoldo · 01-15-2008, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

It is an absurd notion that a loving God would be concerned with dirt. All that land is is dirt. A loving God would concerned with a person's heart, not where they live. .

It's not absurd if you consider that in order for the Jewish people to survive they needed a homeland for at least for enought time to establish they're cultural and religous identity until they were dispersed into all the nations when Jerusalem (and their temple) was destroyed by the Romans in 70. Also you need to take into consideration that a stable homeland was needed in order for God's Word to be written and recorderd accurately throughout the millenium as well as for all of the prophets to be born and most importantly to establish the geneology for the Messiah.
Of course God also made a promise to Abraham to give him the land of Israel and unlike man, God does not break his promises. The problem facing the middle east is in part due to Abraham's disobedience toward God when he was promised he would bear a son. Abraham and his wife was very old and they thought it was impossible for them to have a son. Sarah suggested that Abraham have a son through her servant Hagar and produce Ishmael, the ancestor of the Arabs. Later on Abraham did have a son with his wife Sarah who was named Isaac. God clearly told Abraham that his blessing was on Isaac not Ishmael however the descendants of Ishmael are now claiming the blessing (and the land of Israel) is theirs. It appears that their is no human solution to this middle east conflict although bible prophecy does predict that a political figure will arise who will propose an earthly solution to this conflict which will in part entail the rebuilding of the Jewish temple.

martini · 01-15-2008, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

I've read the bible a couple of times and I don't want to start quoting scriptures but in general the only thing that prevents the Jews from getting wiped out of the face of the earth is the return of their Messiah, Yeshua. The bible states something along the lines that the Jews will look upon the one they have pierced and question where Yeshua got his wounds... and will believe.

may i humbly ask what verse(s) you are referencing in the Tanach? :huh:

Sheshonq · 01-15-2008, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

1. Restricted? In point of fact, the Balfour Declaration did nothing of the kind.

2. And in point of another fact, immigration into Palestine by Jews predates Balfour by several decades.

As I said earlier: you know even less about world history than you know about the bible or science.

So are you saying that Britain did not prevent Jewish immigration?

I am saying that you don't know what the Balfour declaration was.

I'm also saying that you don't have a clue as to the status of Jewish immigration before, or after, Balfour.

Finally, I'm saying that your understanding of world history is probably worse than your understanding of science -- which is saying quite a lot, actually.

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Come on just admit it the Jews encounterd MUCH resistence in their quest for statehood. History says it was so.

Uh, no.

Quote:

Dont embarrass yourself, not all on this forum is ignorant of this historical fact. :wave:

I can guarantee you that I know far more about this than you do. If anyone embarrasses himself in this forum, it won't be me.

martini · 01-15-2008, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

It is an absurd notion that a loving God would be concerned with dirt. All that land is is dirt. A loving God would concerned with a person's heart, not where they live. .

It's not absurd if you consider that in order for the Jewish people to survive they needed a homeland for at least for enought time to establish they're cultural and religous identity

what does this have to do with having a "homeland"? they survived in the "wildernerss", supposedly, for 40 years just fine, complete with manna from heaven and all the fix'ns.

Quote:

until they were dispersed into all the nations

they were not "dispersed into all the nations". i think you are overstepping your knowledge of history -- or geography.

Quote:

when Jerusalem (and their temple) was destroyed by the Romans in 70.

Also you need to take into consideration that a stable homeland was needed in order for God's Word to be written and recorderd accurately throughout the millenium

if you mean the Tanach, Moses, again SUPPOSEDLY, wrote the Book of the Law while the escaped ex-slaves were wandering around "the wilderness" so this is obviously not true.

Quote:

as well as for all of the prophets to be born

because of limitations in establishing an actual Hebrew history outside of the musings of seventh-century (?) nomadic Canaanites, this claim seems a little far-fetched.

further, the prophets were not always born into a sovereign Israel. some may have been under Babylonian or Greek control, for example. the prophets had no problem recording whatever they liked.

Quote:

and most importantly to establish the geneology[sic] for the Messiah.

there is no genealogy for a Messiah. the Christian myth claims that the Yeshua ben Yusef was actually a pre-existent being and that the impregnation of Miriam by the "Holy Ghost" could had nothing to do with an earthly lineage. the Jews cared not one iota about whose MOTHER you had and would have had no reason to record it as such in the Lucan or Matthean gospels, however disparate they are, even then.

Quote:

Of course God also made a promise to Abraham to give him the land of Israel and unlike man, God does not break his promises.

Yahweh broke two promises to Nebuchadrezzar: one with regard to conquering Egypt (Eze20) and one regarding conquering Tyre(Eze26).

Yahweh also did not allow the Hebrews to beat those with chariots of iron(Judges1). a promise is a promise regardless of how much or how little faith they had (if you know that apologetic).

there were no contingencies recorded for any of His promises above.

Quote:

The problem facing the middle east is in part due to Abraham's disobedience toward God when he was promised he would bear a son. Abraham and his wife was very old and they thought it was impossible for them to have a son. Sarah suggested that Abraham have a son through her servant Hagar and produce Ishmael, the ancestor of the Arabs. Later on Abraham did have a son with his wife Sarah who was named Isaac. God clearly told Abraham that his blessing was on Isaac not Ishmael however the descendants of Ishmael are now claiming the blessing (and the land of Israel) is theirs.

nowhere is this recorded in the Torah. it is all Christian fabrication to validate their myths over the Jewish myths. if you believe otherwise, i would appreciate some later reference to this "disobedience" on the part of Abram.

Quote:

It appears that their is no human solution to this middle east conflict although bible prophecy does predict that a political figure will arise who will propose an earthly solution to this conflict which will in part entail the rebuilding of the Jewish temple.

well, people have been effing it up over their well before the Balfour Declaration and they continue to do so today. you may be correct as long as religious land claims hold water in our otherwise naturalistic little planet.

"my god says i get this land" NEVER holds up in court but for some reason, we accept this rationale? ridiculous in the extreme.

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01-14-2008, 02:01 PM	#162
martini Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: the armpit of OH, USA Posts: 73	ADDENDUM it is positively ridiculous to suggest that the Christian and Jewish myths had nothing to do with the formation of Israel. the very fact that they carved out their new country on this supposed "holy land" of past repute was done SOLELY because that area was where they claimed Israel was based on their myths!

01-15-2008, 07:13 AM	#164
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	If God did not actually make a land promise to Abraham and his descendants, what is unusual about Jewish history that cannot easily be explained by secular means. It is an absurd notion that a loving God would be concerned with dirt. All that land is is dirt. A loving God would concerned with a person's heart, not where they live. What if we were to reverse the roles in Jewish/Muslim history, and it had been Muslims who were scattered and persecuted, and Muslims who Hitler killed? Under that scenario, would the U.S. and Britain have favored the creation of a Muslim state in Jerusalem, and favored Muslims controlling Jerusalem? The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel says " ERETZ-ISRAEL (the Land of Israel) was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and political identity was shaped. Here they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books. "After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom." Under my hypothetical scenario, it would have been fair for Muslims to use the same argument, which adequately refutes the claim that it was right to provide persecuted Jews with a homeland of their own in Palestine for humanitarian reasons aside from religious reasons.

01-15-2008, 09:25 AM	#166
arnoldo Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Latin America Posts: 4,066	I've read the bible a couple of times and I don't want to start quoting scriptures but in general the only thing that prevents the Jews from getting wiped out of the face of the earth is the return of their Messiah, Yeshua. The bible states something along the lines that the Jews will look upon the one they have pierced and question where Yeshua got his wounds... and will believe.

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