spamandham

How close must something be to count as a parallel? I think this is Toto's point, as I understood it. If this is an exercise in comparative religion, then we'll find lot's of parallels.

If on the other hand, the idea is to show that Christianity is not a direct descendant of Egyptian religion, then that task is already complete.

Do the following count as parallels? Note that in this list, Egyptian religion is not generally consistent, and so the parallels are either general, or in some cases specific to certain sources only
1. Jesus is the son of a god, Horus is the son of a god
2. The name Jesus means "the salvation of YHWH", and according to most versions of the Horus myth, Horus is the "savior" of Osiris, raising him from the dead (a rite ritualistically reenacted by the Pharaoh's son upon the burial of his father.)
3. The Christian cross is very similar to the ankh
4. The staff used by bishops is very similar to the staffs used by Pharoes
5. Isis/horus iconography is exactly the same as early Mary/Jesus iconography
6. The numbers 3, 7, and 12 are prolific in both religious systems
7 The Egyptian god head consisted of 3 persons (Isis, Osiris, and Horus) as does the Christian Trinity
8. The conceptions are unusual in both cases (conceived of the Holy Spirit for Jesus, resurrected dead father for Horus)
9. Sowing and reaping symbolism
10. Fishermen symbolism
11. Both speak of a day of judgement
12. Both refer to a land of righteousness awaiting after death
13. Both refer to an evil serpent
14. Both are buried in a stone tomb
15. Both demand worship
16. A baptism ritual
17. Both are primordial in nature
18. Halo iconography = solar disk iconography

...to name a few from a comparative religion perspective. Do any of these imply that Christianity is a copycat religion of a Horus cult? No. Is the influence obvious? Yes.

Solitary Man

Do we have sources for any of those things, spamandham?

GakuseiDon

At this stage, it probably doesn't matter, as long as it fulfills the following two criteria:
1. The proposed parallel can be found in primary sources
2. The proposed parallel reflects what is actually in primary sources. That is, the wording needs to be accurate. E.g. "Horus was born of a virgin, like Jesus!" "No, Horus was born miraculously." "Nitpick!" Probably best to use "born miraculously" to start off with.

I think it's worth listing all parallels, including the superficial ones, since we may find that a number of superficial parallels will reveal a pattern worth analyzing further. But that kind of analysis can wait until after we have all the parallels documented and verified from primary sources.

Yes, I think so, though we would need to verify many of them. The problem is that there is a lot of bogus information out there.

I'd suggest "Jesus is the Son of God, and Horus is the son of a god" as a more accurate wording.

I agree with the following:
These would need to be verified:

Is there a source for these?

I think we'd have a better idea about the influence once we have the parallels documented.

PhilVaz

Let me comment on a couple of these. See my All About Horus for details.

<< 1. Jesus is the son of a god, Horus is the son of a god >>

OK. Check

<< 2. The name Jesus means "the salvation of YHWH", and according to most versions of the Horus myth, Horus is the "savior" of Osiris >>

Jesus does mean "Yahweh (or Joshua/Yoshua) is salvation" or "salvation of Yahweh" while one of Horus' forms is indeed "the savior of his father." In Egyptian that is Har-nedj-itef or "Horus the savior of his father" (Greek Harendotes) which refers to Horus' vindication of his claim to succeed Osiris, rescuing his father's former earthly domain from the usurper Seth.

OK, half-check on that one. The name Horus itself ("Har" in Egyptian) probably means "the high," "the far-off," "the distant one." Nothing about salvation there. He is the falcon god, or "lord of the sky."

<< 3. The Christian cross is very similar to the ankh >>

I do see the resemblance. Both symbols stand for "life" but in different senses. Christ's death on the cross brings spiritual life to the Christian. As I understand, the ankh was a sexual/fertility symbol (although other meanings are possible). There are many different Christian crosses, each slightly different designs (see my article on the Irish cross).

<< 4. The staff used by bishops is very similar to the staffs used by Pharoes >>

From the old Catholic Encyclopedia: In liturgical usage the pastoral staff or crosier "probably goes back to the fifth century....Mention of it is made in a letter of Pope Celestine I (d. 432) to the Bishops of Vienne and Narbonne. Staffs have indeed been found in the catacombs that date from the fourth century but their ceremonial character has not been established. The first unequivocal reference to the crosier as a liturgical instrument occurs in the twenty-seventh canon of the Council of Toledo (633)."

So if the bishop's staff was borrowed, this took place in the c. 4th century AD by the Church.

<< 5. Isis/horus iconography is exactly the same as early Mary/Jesus iconography >>

OK. Check I'll give you that one. Although mothers with children is not necessarily a religious symbol, just a human one. Mothers bear and nurse children in every culture.

<< 6. The numbers 3, 7, and 12 are prolific in both religious systems >>

That one I was not aware of. Interesting.

<< 7. The Egyptian god head consisted of 3 persons (Isis, Osiris, and Horus) as does the Christian Trinity >>

Three primary gods/goddesses sure, but there are many more gods in Egyptian religion. It is polytheistic. Christianity has just the one true God in three divine persons.

<< 8. The conceptions are unusual in both cases (conceived of the Holy Spirit for Jesus, resurrected dead father for Horus) >>

I'll grant "magical" or "miraculous conception" in both, but only virginal conception in Christianity. Isis was not a virgin.

<< 9. Sowing and reaping symbolism and 10. Fishermen symbolism >>

Could be. I'm not aware of, I'll look into it.

<< 11. Both speak of a day of judgement >>

Sure, and an afterlife. But different kinds. The Egyptians had a soul existence, Christianity has the body-soul resurrection along with afterlife. I would like to look into this further, but what I have: Bojana Mojsov in Osiris: Death and Afterlife of a God (or via: amazon.co.uk) (Oxford Blackwell, 2005) explicitly calls him "God of the resurrection who presided over the judgment of the soul." (page xvi-xvii). The Egyptian "Coffin Texts" and the "Book of Going Forth by Day" provides the knowledge necessary for any individual to share in the afterlife of Osiris. This judgment is based on the protestations of innocence by the individual and a weighing of the person's heart against the feather of truth (or maat).

<< 14. Both are buried in a stone tomb >>

Do you mean Horus was buried? I don't have Horus ever being killed. His eye was injured in his battle with Seth, but Horus never died. He became "king of the living" while his dead and re-assembled father Osiris was "king of the dead" (or underworld).

<< 16. A baptism ritual >>

This I am not aware of. There was an embalming ritual that did involve water, if you want to equate that with baptism. But baptism was given to infants at birth in the early Church, the Egyptian embalming occured to the body after death.

Described by Budge here: The Liturgy of Funeral Offerings: Purification Ceremonies

<< 18. Halo iconography = solar disk iconography >>

True, another artistic motif borrowed by the early Church. What I have on that: The halo (or nimbus) found in Christian art was used by a number of pre-Christian cultures, including the Greeks and Romans. For example, Roman emperors were depicted on coins with radiantly lit heads. Christians gradually appropriated this cultural element and used it for Christian art. Moses' face radiated light after he came down from Mount Sinai (Exod 34:29-35) and Jesus' face at the Transfiguration "shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light" (Matt 17:2). The use of halos in Christian iconography is simply the Church recognizing the usefulness of an artistic motif.

Phil P

Malachi151

Okay, we finally have a list to work with. As Phil did:

1. Jesus is the son of a god, Horus is the son of a god

Not significant. There were hundreds if not thousands of sons of gods in the various pantheons. This is simply a natural part of human story telling. This is a parallel, but not evidence of borrowing.

2. The name Jesus means "the salvation of YHWH", and according to most versions of the Horus myth, Horus is the "savior" of Osiris, raising him from the dead (a rite ritualistically reenacted by the Pharaoh's son upon the burial of his father.)

Bleh. The name Horus doesn't "mean" "salvation of Osiris", rather Horus saves his father by battling Seth. There is no parallel to this in the Jesus story.

3. The Christian cross is very similar to the ankh

Yeah, too bad the cross symbolism wasn't even a significant element of Christianity until the 4th or 5th century. Prior to that the only real mention of the cross was as the implement of Jesus' death.

4. The staff used by bishops is very similar to the staffs used by Pharoes

This has nothing to do with the origins of the Jesus story. This is a 4th century ritualistic adoption.

5. Isis/horus iconography is exactly the same as early Mary/Jesus iconography

Yep, this is true, but this is once again a product of 3rd - 5th century adoption, it tells us nothing about the origins of the Jesus story. There were no early images of Jesus made, and in fact Mary plays an extremely minor role in the early religion. There is no mention of Mary by Paul or any epistle writers. There is no mention of Mary in Revelation or Hebrews. The only use of Mary in Mark appears to be as a prop for Jesus to reject his family, and her use in the later Gospels stems from her introduction in Mark. None of those uses show any tie to Isis. Mary was ignored for the first 200 years, only rising in her importance as the religion was adopted by pagans who were worshipers of female gods, who then did in fact substitute Mary for the role of female gods in their traditions. So as with most of this stuff, yes there is a tie between certain "Christian" traditions and "pagan" gods or goddesses, but these tell us nothing about the ORIGIN of the Jesus story.

6. The numbers 3, 7, and 12 are prolific in both religious systems

Yep, but this goes back to a much, much earlier common influence since the numbers 3,7, and 12 are already the most important religious numbers in the Torah, the earliest roots of Judaism. The use of these numbers in the New Testament comes from their use in the Hebrew scriptures, not from later Egyptian influence.

7 The Egyptian god head consisted of 3 persons (Isis, Osiris, and Horus) as does the Christian Trinity

Isis, Osiris, and Horus is not a godhead. They were never said to be one. Furthermore, in the earliest Christian writings there is no sign of the Trinity. The Trinity itself is a later Christian tradition, perhaps only really documented in the Bible in the Gospel of John, the last Gospel. So again, not only is the Christianity Trinity not like the Egyptian "trinity", but the Trinity isn't even a foundational concept of the Jesus story.

8. The conceptions are unusual in both cases (conceived of the Holy Spirit for Jesus, resurrected dead father for Horus)

Umm... the conceptions of all gods is unusual if you look at god mythology.

9. Sowing and reaping symbolism

?? Not sure what this means. However, the talk of sowing and reaping in the Gospels all come from direct quotes or literary allusions to the Jewish scriptures. Furthermore, sowing and reaping symbolism is common throughout almost all religions of agricultural civilizations. From the Aztecs and Maya to the Chinese.

10. Fishermen symbolism

The only place that fisherman symbolism shows up in the New Testament writings is in the Gospels. Again, this all starts with Mark and the line about the fisherman in Mark comes from a literary allusion to the Hebrew scritpures. That one line in Mark is what spawns all of the other fisherman references in the later Gospels and Christianity. The line in Mark is ironic BTW.

11. Both speak of a day of judgment

I don't know about speaking of "a day of judgment". Osiris was the judge of the afterlife. He judged people individually after they died to see how their afterlife would be spent. This is very different from the Day of Judgment in the New Testament literature, which is a supposed single day when the Messiah will judge all souls as he destroys the world. These ideas all clearly come directly from Judaism and have nothing in common with Egyptian religion.

12. Both refer to a land of righteousness awaiting after death

First, this is a common theme in basically every religion that talks about life after death, I mean what else would be the point of life after death in a religion? Secondly, the New Testament doesn't really talk about this actually. There is in fact nothing in the NT that says that there is life after death, UNTIL the second coming of Jesus and the Resurrection for the creation of a new world. This is totally different from Egyptian beliefs. Now, in fact, popular Christian ideas about life after death are indeed based on pagan religions, they aren't based on the Bible at all. This is certainly evidence of a pagan influence on Christianity, but not pagan influence on the New Testament authors or on the origins of the Jesus story. That's a later influence, once again.

13. Both refer to an evil serpent

I don't recall any reference to a evil serpent in the New Testament, at least not any significant one. Besides, portraying a ground dwelling poisonous creature as evil would be a no brainier and a common independent development it would show no sign of borrowing.

14. Both are buried in a stone tomb

What other kinds of tombs were there? Secondly, the tomb story once again crops up later in the traditions, starting in the Gospels, its not found in the letters of Paul or in any other writings. The appearance of the tomb in the Gospels starts from Mark, who bases the tomb on lines from the Jewish scritpures.

15. Both demand worship

As all gods do....

16. A baptism ritual

The baptism ritual is an example of possible pagan influence, but the baptism ritual among early Jesus worshiper was nothing like that of other pagan religions, and certainly can't be tied back specifically to anything about Horus.

17. Both are primordial in nature

?? What ??

18. Halo iconography = solar disk iconography

There is no halo iconography in early Christianity. The later imagery once again comes from the later adoption of the religion by pagans. This imagery has nothing to do with the origins of the Jesus story.

spamandham

The purpose of the list was to establish the intent of the question, rather than actually contribute to it. It's just a bunch of stuff I rattled off from memory.

spamandham

That depends on the objective of this excercise, as Toto pointed out early on!

If you're trying to discredit the idea that Christianity is a copycat religion of Horus, that's already debunked. If the intent is to note similarities from a comparative religion persepctive, then this point (and otehrs) are relevant.

There's nothing inherently natural about the idea of gods having children. It may seem that way in a society bathed in Christianity, but plenty of religions do not have such a concept.

dog-on

Zeus had children as well...

spamandham

...as do the gods in many other religions.

Amaleq13

Setting aside whether anything about the idea of gods can be said to be "natural", the concept appears to be quite common in the mythology of many ancient cultures (eg Greek/Roman, Egyptian, American Indian, Hindu).

Judaism (though this may not be true from its original conception) and its other step-child, Islam, do not but I can't think of any others.

ETA: Are you thinking of specifically human children?