Freethought & Rationalism Archive

noah · 04-26-2006, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

I'm coming in late on this discussion, and at risk of repeating someones post, it needs to be said that the OT laws were primarily written for the nation of Israel. If you do a short study of the Levitical laws, food laws, offerings, etc, you learn very quickly that they are specifically tailored to the Jews; not just Jews, but Jews living in Israel.

Wrong. All scripture applies; see Isa 56:1-7, Isaiah 51:4-8 2, Timothy 3:16, Psalm 18:30 and Ecclesiastes 12:13.

noah · 04-26-2006, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Psalm 14:1-4
"The fool has said in his heart, There is no Elohim.
They are corrupt, they have done abominable works,
There is NONE that does does good.
YHWH looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek Elohim.
They are ALL gone aside, they are all together became filthy: There is NONE that does good, no, NOT ONE
Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up MY people as they eat bread, and DO NOT call upon YHWH" (Tehillim / Psalms :1-4)

Read the rest of the passage Sheshbazaar. Verse 5 says

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There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

You see being righteous is possible. You only have to read your God's word to see for yourself and do it.

A few lines from Psalms and Deuteronomy noah, with a little commentary.
IF you observe to DO ALL of these commandments, it shall be your righteousness.
Problem is NO man has ever done "ALL" of these commandments;

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You, in your earlier posts have proved by the record, that the Man from Galilee did not obey, keep or "DO" ALL of these commandments.

Whoops! So much for the Saviour. Jesus is not the saviour. He is disqualified as a result of his many Torah violations.

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And I, in my earlier posts have also proved that Moshe himself did not obey, keep or "DO" ALL of these commandments;

He got a temporary pass from Yahweh on one Law. Your problem here is the children got circumcised in the end and the Law was obeyed.
You can't create a rule out of an exception Sheshbazaar.

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Have you not said in your heart, "There is NO Elohim"?
Have you not heard, nor understood that YHWH the Holy One of Israel has promised that HE WILL HAVE MERCY, forgive, cleanse, and pardon (-exempt-) ALL peoples out of all the nations, who believe on Him, and call upon Him?

Preaching.

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You choose to abuse His words

Proof? I haven't abused any of his words. You're only calling my citations of his word abuse because you don't have an answer. You get challenged on your beliefs and you call it abuse. Go figure.

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to condemn those that believe on Him,

Condemn? Hardly. I'm taking you to account for your neglect of your saviour's words, your saviour's Laws.

yet "DO NOT CALL UPON YHWH" (Psalm 14:4)

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You delight yourself in your skillful "intellectual" argument, but not in Him.
(Psalms 37:4, Proverbs 19:10)

This is an argument?

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My YHWH, says; "I will have mercy, I will forgive them their trespasses, I will cleanse them, and I will pardon their iniquities".

Yes. Mercy is an aspect of Yahweh but don't abuse it by completely ignoring his Laws. You've made a theology out of abusing your God's Laws.

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But you think the Law is the way? Bring forth then, that man that you think is obeying and keeping the commandments, that he may be questioned, and that the truth of such thing may be proved.

So here's your argument? You're saying I am entitled to break the Law because someone else does? What kind of an argument is that? No society could survive if everybody gave themselves a pass on the Law just because they thought someone else did.

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Your eye would allow only a few strict legalists to find favor with YHWH.
(we that believe are persuaded, so "few" that the number is actually "0" or "none")

Actually, no. All Yahweh expects is effort.

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I and my brethren hold that the will of YHWH is the deliverance of an innumerable and mixed multitude out of every nation, and kindred and tongue, including the mamzer and the eunuch and the illiterate, and the deaf, the blind, and the mute, the simple-minded, and the infant that perished from his mothers womb;
NOT as in those former days, when He delivered but seven, or a few hundred, or a few million, but in that Day, a mixed multitude beyond numbering (by men), gathered from all of the generations of man.

THEN, He shall teach us His ways, and we shall walk in them, NOT as formerly, nor as today, when men yet walk in the council of men, saying; "Thus says YHWH..." and man contends with man as to WHAT it is that YHWH says.

Preaching.

noah · 04-26-2006, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

And I, in my earlier posts have also proved that Moshe himself did not obey, keep or "DO" ALL of these commandments; in the preventing of ALL of the millions that went into the Wilderness, and all of them born therein, for the next 40 years, from being under the Covenant of the Law, (for whoso is not circumcised in his foreskin IS outside of, and -EXEMPT- from That Covenant. (Gen.17: 9-14), an
"everlasting covenant" (v. 13) which Moshe did NOT not obey, DO, nor permit to be DONE.

It is said "Moses The Lawgiver", but Scripture bearing witness, I say to ALL, "Moses The Law Breaker", Is he that also bears witness against them under The Law, As it is written; "If you had believed him"

Regarding your earlier post about Moses and circumcision to which you refer hereSheshbazaar, you appear to be ignoring line 2:

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2. At that time the Lord said to Joshua, Make for yourself sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time.

The second time.

From Rashi:

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the second time for they had already circumcised a large assembly on the night of their departure from Egypt, and this was the second time, for the entire forty years that they were in the desert, the north wind did not blow for them, and they did not have any day suitable for circumcision, as we learned in Job. Our Rabbis state, however, “ ‘the second time’ refers the uncovering the corona at circumcision,” [i.e. splitting the membrane and pulling it back] which Abraham was not commanded to do.

If you read Torah you'll see that Moses' wife circumcised their son as a baby. I guess the you forgot that part, huh?

Spincracker · 04-26-2006, 06:57 AM

Heb. 8:13 "Now in saying a new, he hath made the former old. And that which decayeth and groweth old is near its end."

Scripture CLEARLY says the Old Cov. is obselete.

noah · 04-26-2006, 08:19 AM

Quote:

My YHWH, says; "I will have mercy, I will forgive them their trespasses, I will cleanse them, and I will pardon their iniquities".
But you think the Law is the way? Bring forth then, that man that you think is obeying and keeping the commandments, that he may be questioned, and that the truth of such thing may be proved.
Your eye would allow only a few strict legalists to find favor with YHWH.
(we that believe are persuaded, so "few" that the number is actually "0" or "none")

This is the key isn't it? Your Yahweh. It's called selective obedience, pick and choose Christianity or mono-Yahwism. All God's word is binding. There is no such thing as your God. It's unbiblical to pick and choose which verses and words of your God you will obey.

Tell me Sheshbazaar, why would your God issue his Laws if they were so impossible to obey? Sick joke perhaps?
Since God is unbending in his insistence that you obey his commands and you tell me that's so terrible, why is Yahweh your God? Why don't you get another whose word you don't have to obey or who demands less of you.
It really hurts your credibility to complain to non-believers how burdensome and brutal your God's word is and how it is so cruel in its implications. You don't see that?
It's even more damaging to your and your God's credibility to hear you offer such damaging testimony about your God's Laws and such weak excuses for your disobedience of your God's Laws. Saying someone else disobeyed your God's Law as justification for your disobedience of his Law is most amateurish and unconvincing to put it mildly.

Amaleq13 · 04-26-2006, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse Leigh

Paul is the *Greek* form of the *Hebrew* name, "Saul."

I do not believe this is correct. What is your source for the claim?

Toto · 04-26-2006, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse Leigh

G'morning!

Paul is the *Greek* form of the *Hebrew* name, "Saul." Paul's name change came about after Christ appointed him as the Apostle to the Gentiles. It is symbolic of both the change in Paul and in his Divine Commission. - Jesse.

Good morning to you.

Can you cite any Biblical or other support for this?

I know you can't, and I am wondering why you just make things up like this.

Look at Acts 13:

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6 They traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus, 7 who was an attendant of the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. The proconsul, an intelligent man, sent for Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the word of God. 8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith. 9 Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, 10 "You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? 11 Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun."

See? No name change. No symbolism. Saul has been preaching to the gentiles for a while now.

The Hebrew Saul (the name of a king who preceded David) became the Aramaic Silas and is the equivalent of the Latin Silvanus.

Paulus was a common name - it meant "small" or "the runt." It's not the sort of name that one would chose as symbolic of anything good. The magician Simon Magnus was known as Simon the runt.

noah · 04-26-2006, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spincracker

Heb. 8:13 "Now in saying a new, he hath made the former old. And that which decayeth and groweth old is near its end."

Scripture CLEARLY says the Old Cov. is obselete.

Actually, scripture doesn't say that at all. As Jesus and his Father say, their Laws are eternal, unchanging and perfect. Perfect, eternal and unchanging Laws don't go out of date. EVER. They don't become old or replaced. They apply forever. Furthermore, Jesus and his Father state on a number of occasions that any adding to their perfect and eternal Law or diminishing their Law is forbidden. They also warn against those who disobey it and teach others to do do the same.
Is the writer of Heb 8:13 a member of the Trinity? On whose authority is he making this declaration? I ask because he is not doing it on the authority of Jesus and his Father.
I suggest you read through this whole thread. Because it sounds like you haven't.

noah · 04-26-2006, 10:16 AM

Why did your God issue his laws if they were so unfair and imposssible to obey?

noah · 04-26-2006, 10:32 AM

I made an error with the quote function in part of this post number 147.
This is the correct version of this part my post:
You've also forgotten Mathew 5:17-20 where your saviour tells you to obey his commandments as the key to salvation

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and Matthew 23:2

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The scribes and the Pharisees sat on Moses' seat. All things therefore whatever they tell you to observe, observe and do...

Never mind that Jesus said they were hypocrites. Do as the scribes and pharisees said. What did they say? Do the Law.
Now take a look at the verse where Jesus says his words last forever
Matt. 24:35

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Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

And that's your problem isn't it. Forever means forever. You can't change it. Mathew 5:17-20, 23:2 and 24:35 are game set and match. You have to obey Jesus' laws.
Any verse cited in oppstion to these verses means a contradicition in the word of JC.

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Nowhere, I say again, does the Bible teach the law saves anybody.

Repetition of a point does not prove the point.

04-26-2006, 10:16 AM	#159
noah Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 287	Question for Sheshbazaar and Gamera Why did your God issue his laws if they were so unfair and imposssible to obey?

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04-26-2006, 06:57 AM	#154
Spincracker Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: MA Posts: 1,091	Heb. 8:13 "Now in saying a new, he hath made the former old. And that which decayeth and groweth old is near its end." Scripture CLEARLY says the Old Cov. is obselete.

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