Ben C Smith

Some also look to Hosea 6.2 for a raising on the third day.

Ben.

Toto

Google books: Biblical Interpretation in Early Christian Gospels discusses Hosea 6.2 - it is a poor fit on the facts, but the author claims that it was appropriated to harmonize the Christian story with the Scriptural record.

Amazon link.

NT Wright also likes Hosea 6.2

spamandham

In regards to 1 Corinthians 15:3-11, Robert Price argues that it's a later interpolation.

As Toto points out above, all indications are that Paul is referring to the Jewish scriptures. Paul uses variations of the word 'crucified' repeatedly in the epistles in ways in which it's clear he means 'humbled' rather than 'executed'.

So, while it would take quite a strained reading of the Jewish scriptures to come up with an implication of an executed Messiah, it's easy to find reference to a humbled servant, in Isaiah 54. Coincidentally (yah, right), if you project the passion back onto Isaiah 54, you see striking similarities, almost as if the passion were constructed from it.

Ben C Smith

Agreed, if by the facts you mean a literal understanding of Hosea 6.2. Christians were famous for more allegorical or symbolic understandings of the scriptures, and Hosea 6.2 makes for great symbolism. The LXX has εν τη ημερα τη τριτη αναστησομεθα (in the day, the third one, we shall be resurrected). 1 Corinthians 15.4 has εγηγερται τη ημερα τη τριτη (he was raised on the day, the third one). Israel is to be raised up on the third day, the messiah represents Israel (on several levels), and thus the messiah is raised up on the third day. Just as Matthew 2.15 took Israel in Hosea 11.1 and changed it to the messiah, Paul here takes Israel (we) in Hosea 6.2 and changes it to the messiah.

(The interchangeability for Paul of raising and resurrection is established; see 1 Corinthians 15.12.)

For my money, Hosea 6.2 may be the source for 1 Corinthians 15.4, though I agree there may also be influence from Jonah and the numerological qualities of the number 3.

Ben.

mg01

All very interesting, particularly the Luke 24 passages. I'd never considered them in that context. The first "Bible Codeists"? You would think with all the textual clues in the text the Christian origins wouldn't be so difficult to unravel. Some syncretic movement arose that merged Greek mystery cults with Hebrew prophetic material and served as the foundational material for alegorical "histories" and multiple interpretations which are still debated 2000 years later. There seems to be little more that can be said with certainty.

It's interesting how anything magical or worthy for the Hebrews was always happening after three days or on the third day. I count somewhere around 70 based on some crude searches. Not too teribly many, but I can't find any comparative events happening after 2, 4, 5, etc... There are lots of magical references to 7 and 40 too, you would have thought the NT authors would have picked up on this and included ... oh yeah.

JoeWallack

JW:
"Paul uses variations of the word 'crucified' repeatedly in the epistles in ways in which it's clear he means 'humbled' rather than 'executed'. The evidence in this Thread so far supports the Possibility that Paul used a Figurative meaning for Christ "crucified". Per Strong's:

http://ulrikp.dk/strongsgreek/goto.php?strongs=STAUROW

JW:
"figuratively, to extinguish (subdue) passion or selfishness". Wow, that sure fits Paul's message (and "Mark's). But spamandham, will you do me a favor? Do you love me? If I ever quote Strong's as authoritative will you do me a favor? ...Kill me. Ahh, Ahhh Aahhh! I fear that at this point the main thing we've done is just encourage our more enthusiastic MJ members while the only practical effect will be to raise Dr. Gibson's blood pressure.

It seems to me that the use of "crucify" in the Christian Bible, even when used figuratively, might always have a Context of referring to Jesus' supposed literal crucifixion. The question is, can "crucify" (stauros*) stand by itself (so to speak) as Figurative in contemporary literature? I invite the Unfaithful to investigate for themselves:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...ntry=0;start=0

So far it doesn't look good but I did find this gem:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...er=1:section=1

check out the entry for DA'PHITAS @

http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/0944.html

A virtual reality feeding frenzy for our Resident Evil MJ's:

1) Famous Orator Crucified for speaking against the Kings.

2) Nearby Virgin

3) Simliar path for the Ignatian Epistles (Ephesus, Magnesia, etc.)

4) The triumph pf prophecy over wisdom (Paul must have loved that).

Regrettably though, nothing to support "crucify" as Figurative here.



Joseph

REVELATION, n.
A famous book in which St. John the Divine concealed all that he knew. The revealing is done by the commentators, who know nothing.

The Papias Smear, Changes in sell Structure. Evidence for an Original Second Century Gospel.

spamandham

As much as I love you Joe, I don't love you enough to kill you.

That's certainly possible, but the question is, is that what Paul means?

...out of all the times Paul uses 'crucify', only once does it clearly seem to refer to an execution. Is this a later addition? I don't know.

...maybe this one too - a docetic execution? Same question, did Paul actually write this? I don't know.

...a good point, but not decisive in my mind. To me, the jury is still out as to whether Paul considered Jesus as a recent historical figure, a figure from long ago, or a revealed character from the Jewish scriptures of his day. There is evidence that supports each of these, and evidence that undermines each.

JoeWallack

JW:
This is one of those Ironically correct observations that "Mark" was so fond of. The first Christian Assertian that Jesus was crucified does come from David. Just not for the reason you think. There's also a reason for the "Lord" verses "lord" distinction. Can you tell me what it is?



Joseph

REVELATION, n.
A famous book in which St. John the Divine concealed all that he knew. The revealing is done by the commentators, who know nothing.

The Papias Smear, Changes in sell Structure. Evidence for an Original Second Century Gospel.

JoeWallack

JW:
By Jehovah, I think I've got it:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...%3Achapter%3D2

JW:
I think it's safe to say that the above use of stauros* is Figurative with a meaning of "condemned" and that this is potentially an exponentially better source for "Mark's" Jesus' Passion than anything from Jewish writings.



Joseph

TRIAL, n.
A formal inquiry designed to prove and put upon record the blameless characters of judges, advocates and jurors. In order to effect this purpose it is necessary to supply a contrast in the person of one who is called the defendant, the prisoner, or the accused. If the contrast is made sufficiently clear this person is made to undergo such an affliction as will give the virtuous gentlemen a comfortable sense of their immunity, added to that of their worth. In our day the accused is usually a human being, or a socialist, but in mediaeval times, animals, fishes, reptiles and insects were brought to trial. A beast that had taken human life, or practiced sorcery, was duly arrested, tried and, if condemned, put to death by the public executioner. Insects ravaging grain fields, orchards or vineyards were cited to appeal by counsel before a civil tribunal, and after testimony, argument and condemnation, if they continued in contumaciam the matter was taken to a high ecclesiastical court, where they were solemnly excommunicated and anathematized. In a street of Toledo, some pigs that had wickedly run between the viceroy's legs, upsetting him, were arrested on a warrant, tried and punished. In Naples and ass was condemned to be burned at the stake, but the sentence appears not to have been executed. D'Addosio relates from the court records many trials of pigs, bulls, horses, cocks, dogs, goats, etc., greatly, it is believed, to the betterment of their conduct and morals. In 1451 a suit was brought against the leeches infesting some ponds about Berne, and the Bishop of Lausanne, instructed by the faculty of Heidelberg University, directed that some of "the aquatic worms" be brought before the local magistracy. This was done and the leeches, both present and absent, were ordered to leave the places that they had infested within three days on pain of incurring "the malediction of God." In the voluminous records of this cause celebre nothing is found to show whether the offenders braved the punishment, or departed forthwith out of that inhospitable jurisdiction.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Toto

Interesting. The quote is from Epictetus. Are you suggesting that it is a typical figure of speach or that this is a direct influence? The timing is about right, and there are other intriguing points of confluence: Richard Carrier has an essay on Musonius Rufus:Do we have another model for the Jesus of the Gospels here?