Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JoeWallack · 02-13-2008, 04:30 PM

The Ballad of John and Luko

JW:
Was Paul the First to Assert that Jesus was Crucified?

Extant Writings seem to indicate that Paul was the First to write the Assertian that Jesus was Crucified. Was Paul also the First to Assert that Jesus was Crucified, without any Qualifications?

The starting point to try and answer this question is the earliest extant Direct claim that Jesus was Crucified. By "Direct" I mean that the author claims that Jesus was crucified and not just that someone else the author knew made the claim. Here is one of Paul's Direct claims:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/1_Corinthians_2

Quote:

2:1 And I, brethren, when I came unto you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
2:4 And my speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
2:5 that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
2:6 We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown: yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought:
2:7 but we speak God`s wisdom in a mystery, [even] the [wisdom] that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory:
2:8 which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory:
2:9 but as it is written, Things which eye saw not, and ear heard not, And [which] entered not into the heart of man, Whatsoever things God prepared for them that love him.
2:10 But unto us God revealed [them] through the Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
2:11 For who among men knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of the man, which is in him? even so the things of God none knoweth, save the Spirit of God.
2:12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.
2:13 Which things also we speak, not in words which man`s wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual [words].
2:14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man.
2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

JW:
Note especially:

"2:8 which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory:"

Paul never gives any detail regarding specifically Who these rulers were. Subsequent Christian writings vary as to who exactly did the supposed crucifying. All seem to agree though that it was some Type of ruler(s), Roman, Israel, Priests, Pharisees, El-satira. Is the subsequent Christian Assertian based mainly/exclusively on Paul's statement here in 1 Corinthians?

Also note that Revelation is smeared all over the above quote and there is no indication of any Historical witness source for Paul's Assertian. It's almost as if Jerry Seinfeld and George Costanza created this religion:

George: Why don't we create a new religion.

Jerry: What would our evidence be?

George: (Having a Revelation). Nothing!

Jerry: How can you have a religion with no evidence?

George: We'll say you have to have Faith.

Jerry: And how would you know that?

George: Revelation!

Jerry: So how would you get it started?

George: With a Revelation! (George and Jerry point at each other in agreement). The first "Episode" will be a Revelation about Nothing!

Jerry: I think you've got Something.

Joseph

REVELATION, n.
A famous book in which St. John the Divine concealed all that he knew. The revealing is done by the commentators, who know nothing.

The Papias Smear, Changes in sell Structure. Evidence for an Original Second Century Gospel.

arnoldo · 02-13-2008, 07:18 PM

David, in Psalm 22, refered to Yeshua as crucified. IIRC in the psalms he mentions something along the lines that the Lord said to my lord which was also refering to Yeshua.

Quote:

1 To the Overseer, on 'The Hind of the Morning.' -- A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation, The words of my roaring?

2 My God, I call by day, and Thou answerest not, And by night, and there is no silence to me.

3 And Thou art holy, Sitting -- the Praise of Israel.

4 In Thee did our fathers trust -- they trusted, And Thou dost deliver them.

5 Unto Thee they cried, and were delivered, In Thee they trusted, and were not ashamed.

6 And I am a worm, and no man, A reproach of man, and despised of the people.

7 All beholding me do mock at me, They make free with the lip -- shake the head,

8 'Roll unto Jehovah, He doth deliver him, He doth deliver him, for he delighted in him.'

9 For thou art He bringing me forth from the womb, Causing me to trust, On the breasts of my mother.

10 On Thee I have been cast from the womb, From the belly of my mother Thou art my God.

11 Be not far from me, For adversity is near, for there is no helper.

12 Many bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me,

13 They have opened against me their mouth, A lion tearing and roaring.

14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 Dried up as an earthen vessel is my power, And my tongue is cleaving to my jaws.

16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet.

17 I count all my bones -- they look expectingly, They look upon me,

18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall.

This particular Bible Translation (YOUNG) is supposed to be from the original Greek so there was no bias in translating it. However since it is clearly messianic certain groups try to say it is translated wrong.

Dear Rabbi Singer

Toto · 02-13-2008, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

JW:
Was Paul the First to Assert that Jesus was Crucified?

Extant Writings seem to indicate that Paul was the First to write the Assertian that Jesus was Crucified. Was Paul also the First to Assert that Jesus was Crucified, without any Qualifications?

The starting point to try and answer this question is the earliest extant Direct claim that Jesus was Crucified. By "Direct" I mean that the author claims that Jesus was crucified and not just that someone else the author knew made the claim. Here is one of Paul's Direct claims:

...

The problem here is putting a date on Paul's writings. The passage that you quote has a lot of language that would fit in well in the second century. Did Paul write this? Did someone else add it to his letter?

A variety of scholars have tried to reconstruct a Passion Narrative that can be dated to 30-60 C.E. It sounds like desperation to me - since Mark can't be dated that early, someone has to try to connect these later gospels back to events of 30 C.E. Crossan, in particular, in Who Killed Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk), thinks that the Gospel of Peter represents the earliest version of the Passion. I don't think that the idea of a early gospel of Peter has a lot of support, and in any case, we only have fragments of that document, but it is an intriguing hypothesis.

JoeWallack · 02-14-2008, 07:20 AM

The Ballad of John and Luko

JW:
Paul, the earliest related extant writing per the majority of Bible scholarship, claims that his Source for Learning that Jesus was crucified, was Revelation. The Implication is that it was new information for Paul and did not confirm what he had learned from Historical witness. It is Possible though that Paul had been told by Historical witness that Jesus was crucified and either did not believe it or at least just did not care until he had a Revelation which confirmed the Act/Significance. The closest that Paul ever comes to claiming that Historical witness claimed that Jesus was crucified is:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/1_Corinthians_15

Quote:

15:1 Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand,
15:2 by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain.
15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
15:4 and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures;
15:5 and that he appeared to Cephas; then to the twelve;
15:6 then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain until now, but some are fallen asleep;
15:7 then he appeared to James; then to all the apostles;
15:8 and last of all, as to the [child] untimely born, he appeared to me also.
15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not found vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
15:11 Whether then [it be] I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

JW:
Note that the purpose of the above is to add to the supposed authority of Paul by Asserting that Paul is making the same claims as Historical witness. Yet the above does not claim that any of the supposed historical witness above claimed that Jesus was crucified. In all of Paul's Extant writings Paul never claims that anyone he knew claimed that they witnessed a Historical crucifixion.

Christian Bible scholarship and even Christian Familiars here on our own Holy Boards Assume that Paul's claim of a crucifixion agreed with Historical witness because Paul's writings show no Explicit evidence that there was any dispute on the subject between Paul and Historical witness. I ask my fellow truth-speakers here though, wouldn't a lack of Historical witness claim to Jesus' crucifixion Strengthen Paul's Assertian's of Revelation and Mystery? Isn't Paul's lack of any mention of Historical witness to Jesus' crucifixion Consistent with promoting it as Revelation of a Mystery? Wouldn't it seem strange/bizarre/macabre to a Hearer that what Paul claimed as Revelation of a Mystery was exactly the same as what Historical witness was claiming?

Consider that if Historical witness is behind Q, which I think it is, Q has no mention of a crucifixion.

Summary so far:

1) No extant claim of Jesus' crucifixion Before Paul.

2) Paul never claims Jesus' crucifixion while Contemporary to Paul.

3) Paul claims Jesus' crucifixion based on Revelation.

4) Paul never claims that Historical witness claimed Jesus' crucifixion.

5) Paul gives no Details for the crucifixion.

6) Paul's related General comment, that Jesus was crucified by the Rulers of the age, seems like the basis for Subsequent Christian claims of Who crucified Jesus.

7) The Historical witness for Jesus, Q, makes no mention of crucifixion.

Joseph

REVELATION, n.
A famous book in which St. John the Divine concealed all that he knew. The revealing is done by the commentators, who know nothing.

The Papias Smear, Changes in sell Structure. Evidence for an Original Second Century Gospel.

aa5874 · 02-14-2008, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

The Ballad of John and Luko

JW:
Was Paul the First to Assert that Jesus was Crucified?

Extant Writings seem to indicate that Paul was the First to write the Assertian that Jesus was Crucified.

The extant writings do not appear to indicate such a thing at all.

These writings appear or seem to indicate that "Paul" was fiction, and that the history of "Paul" was written sometime in the 2nd century, that is, his conversion, his revelations and missionary work proclaiming the gospel of the uncircumcision appear to be fabricated.

And further, the extant writings seem to show, based on Justin Martyr's and even Tertullian to some extent, that there may have been no writings up the middle of the 2nd century known to be authored by "Paul", these writings may have been anonymous.

It is also not helpful and counter-productive to use the so-called "Pauline Epistles" to authenticate the same questionable "Paul". You need credible EXTERNAL NON-APOLOGETIC sources, and so far, you have not produced any.

schilling.klaus · 02-14-2008, 08:55 AM

Only deceivers of mankind see the rulers in the Pauline epistles (falsely so-called) as humans. But those archons are metaphysical powers, described more precisely in the NHL text "Hypsotasis of the Archons" .

Klaus Schilling

andrewcriddle · 02-14-2008, 10:34 AM

1 Corinthians 15: 2-4 implies that Paul had received from the other Apostles an account of the death of Jesus http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1cori...inthians15.htm

Quote:

For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures; that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures; .........

Andrew Criddle

Toto · 02-14-2008, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schilling.klaus

Only deceivers of mankind see the rulers in the Pauline epistles (falsely so-called) as humans. But those archons are metaphysical powers, described more precisely in the NHL text "Hypsotasis of the Archons" .

Klaus Schilling

Hypostasis of the Archons (The Reality of the Rulers) reads like a counter to Genesis. Everything that God does in Genesis is performed by these "Rulers," sometimes in a fairy-tale like retelling.

Comment by Robert Price

Toto · 02-14-2008, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

1 Corinthians 15: 2-4 implies that Paul had received from the other Apostles an account of the death of Jesus http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1cori...inthians15.htm

Quote:

For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures; that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures; .........

Andrew Criddle

But this account, even assuming that this passage was not a later interpolation, does not mention crucifixion. "In accordance with the scriptures" would not indicate crucifixion as far as I can tell.

schilling.klaus · 02-14-2008, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

A variety of scholars have tried to reconstruct a Passion Narrative that can be dated to 30-60 C.E. It sounds like desperation to me - since Mark can't be dated that early, someone has to try to connect these later gospels back to events of 30 C.E. Crossan, in particular, in Who Killed Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk), thinks that the Gospel of Peter represents the earliest version of the Passion. I don't think that the idea of a early gospel of Peter has a lot of support, and in any case, we only have fragments of that document, but it is an intriguing hypothesis.

The Gospel of Peter may be second century and still be the first one with the later synoptic passion narrative

Klaus Schilling

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02-14-2008, 08:55 AM	#6
schilling.klaus Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Germany Posts: 267	Only deceivers of mankind see the rulers in the Pauline epistles (falsely so-called) as humans. But those archons are metaphysical powers, described more precisely in the NHL text "Hypsotasis of the Archons" . Klaus Schilling

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