Duvduv

By way of summary we find that despite many citations from the Hebrew scriptures in the epistles, indicating the author(s) were familiar with them, the usual references that we would expect to see in reference to the messiah and the messianic times are quite absent from the epistles.

If a non-historical Christ was the salvation of mankind and the author(s) of the epistles frequently cited the Hebrew scriptures, why do the authors of the epistles ignore references pointing to the messiah and Elijah in reference to the Christ?

Here is a helpful page that indicates Old Testament citations in the NT including the epistles.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/quote02.html

There are many interesting observations to be made, not the least of which that the relevant passages in Isaiah 53 usually ascribed to Jesus never appear in the epistles.

Aside from the two citations from Malachi 1 in Romans none of the epistles refer to Malachi 3 or 4, which is central to the Elijah/Baptist link in the gospels.

Romans has many other Hebrew scripture citations.

For example, the epistles have no citations from Isaiah 11 Isaiah 40, 45, 49 or Isaiah 65 regarding the messianic epoch (except for one citation of Isaiah 11 in Romans).

sotto voce

The price of papyrus.

aa5874

Quite amazingly, the author of the short-ending gMark did NOT even use any or hardly any of the passages of Hebrew Scripture found in the Pauline writings.

The Markan Jesus was NOT derived from the Hebrew passages for the Pauline resurrected Jesus.

The Pauline claim of SALVATION and Remission of Sins by the Resurrection of Jesus is NOT found anywhere in Hebrew Scripture.

Duvduv

What verses do you exclude from GMark since according to the chart GMark has many references from the Hebrew Scriptures?

PhilosopherJay

Hi duvduv,

This is another excellent point showing that the Jesus (Yahweh Saves) described in the epistles of Paul was nothing like the Jesus (Yahweh Saves) of the gospels.

Two writers might use the same terms to describe Superman and Batman (e.g. superhero, crime-fighter, secret identity). That does not mean they are talking about the same character. The Paul Jesus Christ is closer to Yahweh, the Gospel Jesus is closer to Moses.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Duvduv

Hi, Jay. Now this suggests that the Jewish scriptures were important in ways OTHER THAN in direct messianic reference to the Christ. So then I wonder: how did the authors of the epistles view the verses referring to the Jewish messiah in the same books in which other verses were cited, i.e. Isaiah and Malachi??

Take chapter 6 in Ephesians. The author apparently invokes Isaiah 11, 49, 52 and 59, skipping over Isaiah 53! Now what if that entire chapter had nothing to do with the Christ, was a moralizing document of another source and two verses with greetings in the name of Christ were added later?! Otherwise, how could the epistle, which of course mentions Christ repeatedly resists citing Isaiah 53, except that the rest of the epistle refrains from any reference to Christ as the Jewish messiah figure despite its familiarity with Hebrew scriptures.
So what did the author think of the references concerning the messiah?!

Duvduv

Take a look at 2 Thessalonians 2:8, where the author paraphrases Isaiah 11:4 when referring to the Man of Lawlessness, entirely skipping over Isaiah 11:1 referring to the shoot of Jesse (i.e. seed of David).

Of course 2 Thessalonians only has three chapters altogether. It could easily have originated from a letter inspired by Daniel having nothing to do with the Christ at all and redacted to refer to the imminent coming of Christ (note that the term in chapter 2:1 is not RETURN but COMING).
How about these three uninterpolated chapters:

Thanksgiving and Prayer
3 We ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love all of you have for one another is increasing.
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. 8 He will punish those who do not know God. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
11 With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may bring to fruition your every desire for goodness and your every deed prompted by faith.

The Man of Lawlessness
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
16 May God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.

Request for Prayer
1 As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. 2 And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen you and protect you from the evil one. 4 We have confidence in the Lord that you are doing and will continue to do the things we command. 5 May the Lord direct your hearts into God’s love.

Warning Against Idleness
6 In the name of the Lord we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”
11 We hear that some among you are idle and disruptive. They are not busy; they are busybodies. 12 Such people we command and urge in the Lord to settle down and earn the food they eat. 13 And as for you, brothers and sisters, never tire of doing what is good.
14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer.
Final Greetings
16 Now may the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times and in every way. The Lord be with all of you.
17 I, Paul, write this greeting in my own hand, which is the distinguishing mark in all my letters. This is how I write.

Duvduv

Surprisingly enough, Isaiah 53 is not invoked anywhere in the gospels either when and where it should be expected. Only in Matthew 8 does verse 4 in Isaiah 53 appear in reference to Jesus healing evil spirits and even here it is really out of contex and could be a later interpolation.
Yet nowhere is Isaiah 53 invoked in the gospels in relation to the crucifixion and passion.
Quite remarkable I dare say.

sotto voce

That's one interpretation. The enormous likelihood is that the author of Matthew took the physical healings, especially those due to evil spirits, to be proof of spiritual healing, i.e. atonement.

'Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home." And the man got up and went home.' Mt 9:5-7 NIV

By physical healing, Jesus had already (ch. 4) drawn huge crowds; he then proceeded, briefly, to teach from a post-crucifixion, spiritual perspective (the 'Beatitudes'), as if the crucifixion had already occurred.

'Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.

"How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture: "He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is silent, so he did not open his mouth. In his humiliation he was deprived of justice. Who can speak of his descendants? For his life was taken from the earth." The eunuch asked Philip, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?" Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.'

Ac 8:30-35 NIV

Good news = gospel

Duvduv

I wasn't referring to Acts, where even there the reference is very sparse considering the magnitude of the whole crucifixion and passion. And in Matthew it is even sparser for the same reason, not to mention the other gospels. It remains remarkable. Then there is the fact that as I mentioned none of the prophetic references to the messiah is invoked in the epistles. Even in those statements in Romans about Christ's blood in connection with Isaiah 53. Despite the fact that the epistle writers were as familiar with the Tanakh as were the authors of the gospels.

Unless the epistles were based on letters having nothing to do with a Christ belief and therefore having no need for any messiah related references, and later were merged with Christ teachings.

After all, if someone liked the essence of the original letters why not just use and integrate them, thus lending greater authenticity to the combined teachings?