Freethought & Rationalism Archive

TedM · 06-29-2011, 08:59 AM

This historian would be a great source of information on Jesus. Although his writings are now extinct, Josephus refers to their existence, as does other writers.

He wrote an account of the Jewish War, as well as a history of Jewish Kings through AgrippaII. I would think that somewhere--esp in the latter--one might expect a mention of Jesus.

There is a quote by Photius, many centuries later, that indicates he read the chronicle of the Kings and Jesus isn't mentioned:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/more...ibliotheca.htm

Quote:

Read the Chronicle of Justus of Tiberias,4 entitled A Chronicle of the Kings of the Jews in the form of a genealogy, by Justus of Tiberias.5 He came from Tiberias in Galilee, from which he took his name. He begins his history with Moses and carries it down to the death of the seventh Agrippa of the family of Herod 6 and the last of the kings of the Jews. His kingdom, which was bestowed upon him by Claudius, was extended by Nero, and still more by Vespasian. He died in the third year of the reign of Trajan, when the history ends. Justus's style is very concise, and he omits a great deal that is of the utmost importance. Suffering from the common fault of the Jews, to which race he belonged, he does not even mention the coming of Christ, the events of His life, or the miracles performed by Him. His father was a Jew named Pistus; Justus himself, according to Josephus, was one of the most abandoned of men, a slave to vice and greed. He was a political opponent of Josephus, against whom he is said to have concocted several plots; but Josephus, although on several occasions he had his enemy in his power, only chastised him with words and let him go free. It is said that the history which he wrote is in great part fictitious, especially where he describes the Judaeo-Roman war and the capture of Jerusalem.

However, I see that in the Jewish Encyclopedia, it sounds like they JE is saying (bolded below) that Photius may not have read the entire chronicle, although it isn't clear to me why they suggest that.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...d=738&letter=J

Quote:

If "Justus" is to be read in a corrupted passage of Suidas (s.v. πλέγων), it would appear that the former treated Jewish history at greater length than Phlegon; also that Justus dilated upon the morality and other virtues of the Jews, whereas Josephus, according to Suidas, aimed to give the Greeks no offense. In Diogenes Laertius (ii. 5, § 41) is a quotation from Justus' chronicle in the form of an anecdote concerning Plato at the trial of Socrates. It would seem, then, that Photius had seen only an extract from the chronicle. If Justus arranged his book in the form of a royal genealogy (ἐν τοῖς στέμμασιν), he may have written objectionably of the Herodians. His remark about Plato seems to show that he shared the Hellenistic belief that Greek wisdom was borrowed from the Jews. Schlatter believes that even Josephus made use of Justus' work in his "Antiquities." Jerome (l.c.) mentions a third work by Justus, a short commentary on the Scriptures; but nothing further is known of it.

Does anyone here know why the JE is saying Photius may not have read the entire chronicle?

Also, do you happen to know if any earlier writers specifically mentioned an awareness of the same chronicle that Photius mentions, other than Josephus?

I see that Justus' book about the war is referenced by some earlier writers, but seems to me that the chronicle of the Jewish history might be a more fitting place for mention of Jesus:

Quote:

Justus' book was, of course, written in Greek, and was probably entitled Ιστορία ἡ τοῦ Ιουδαϊκοῦ Πολέμου τοῦ Οὐεσπασιανοῦ (Stephanus of Byzantium, s.v. Τιβεριάς). It is mentioned by Eusebius ("Hist. Eccl." iii. 10, 8), by Jerome ("De Viris Illustribus," § 14), and by Suidas (s.v. Ιοῦστος), probably not independently, but following Josephus, since the latter's work, approved by Titus, had caused that of his rival to be forgotten.

Thanks,
Ted

Roger Pearse · 06-29-2011, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Quote:

In Diogenes Laertius (ii. 5, § 41) is a quotation from Justus' chronicle in the form of an anecdote concerning Plato at the trial of Socrates. It would seem, then, that Photius had seen only an extract from the chronicle.

Book 2, chapter 5 is about Socrates. On p. 171 of the Loeb, in section 41, it reads:

Quote:

Justus of Tiberias in his book entitled The Wreath says that in the course of the trial Plato mounted the platform and began: "Though I am the youngest, men of Athens, of all who ever rose to address you" -- whereupon the judges shouted out "Get down! Get down!" When therefore he was condemned by 281 votes more than those given for acquittal, and when the judges were assessing what he should suffer or what fine he should pay, he proposed to pay 25 drachmas. ...

I don't think the latter sentence is quoted from Justus necessarily -- Diogenes runs his quotations and comments together.

The Wreath is ἐν τῷ Στέμματι.

If I understand the argument, it is that, if Justus work contained an account of the trial of Socrates, then it cannot have been so limited to Jewish affairs as Photius says. But of course the saying might have been quoted in quite another context, and the argument seems weak.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse · 06-29-2011, 11:13 AM

The Suda, phi, 527 - the entry on Phlegon:

Quote:

Of Tralles,[1] freedman of Augustus Caesar, but some say of Hadrian:[2] historian. He wrote Olympiads in 16 books. Up to the 229th Olympiad[3] they contain what was done everywhere. And these in 8 books: Description of Sicily, On long-lived and marvelous persons, On the feasts of the Romans 3 books, On the places in Rome and by what names they are called, Epitome of Olympic victors in 2 books, and other things.[4]

About this Phlegon, as Philostorgius says,[5] to relate fully in detail what befell with the Jews, while Phlegon and Dio mentioned [these events] briefly and made them an appendix to their own narrative. Since this man does not exhibit at all prudently those who would lead to piety and other virtues, as those others do not either. Josephus, on the contrary, is like one who fears and takes care not to offend the [sc.pagan] Greeks.[6]

[1] In the Maeander valley, Asia Minor; Barrington Atlas Map 61 grid F2; present-day Aydin. cf. under alpha 3424, chi 525, and (for other citizens of it) alpha 4113, pi 2165.
[2] Modern scholarship accepts the latter (as indeed chronology demands: see next note).
[3] 137-140.
[4] cf. Photius, Bibliotheca ch.97.
[5] Besides the incomplete sentence, the name of a third historian is missing. The seventeenth-century scholar Valesius (Henri de Valois) suggested that it should be Josephus (iota 503, iota 504), who would be contrasted with Phlegon and (sc. Cassius) Dio (delta 1239). Valesius' second choice was Justus Tiberiensis (iota 450).
[6] Philostorgius, Ecclesiastical History 1.1 (p. 5 Bidez-Winkelmann). This excerpt is from the prologue, where apparently Philostorgius is comparing his new genre of church history with the work of earlier historians.

Iota, 450 is Ἰοῦστος

Quote:

Of Tiberias, in the province of Galilee; he himself attempted to compile a Jewish History and write certain commentaries; but Josephus proved this man a fraud. For he was writing at the same moment as Josephus.

Josephus discusses Justus in his Vita, 34 and 5. Eusebius mentions him under A.A.2113 in his Chronicle. Jerome, de viris illustribus 14. Stephanus Byzantinus s. Tiberias.

I thought that Justus and Josephus were contemporaries, but perhaps others know better.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

TedM · 06-29-2011, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Book 2, chapter 5 is about Socrates. On p. 171 of the Loeb, in section 41, it reads:

Quote:

Justus of Tiberias in his book entitled The Wreath says that in the course of the trial Plato mounted the platform and began: "Though I am the youngest, men of Athens, of all who ever rose to address you" -- whereupon the judges shouted out "Get down! Get down!" When therefore he was condemned by 281 votes more than those given for acquittal, and when the judges were assessing what he should suffer or what fine he should pay, he proposed to pay 25 drachmas. ...

I don't think the latter sentence is quoted from Justus necessarily -- Diogenes runs his quotations and comments together.

The Wreath is ἐν τῷ Στέμματι.

If I understand the argument, it is that, if Justus work contained an account of the trial of Socrates, then it cannot have been so limited to Jewish affairs as Photius says. But of course the saying might have been quoted in quite another context, and the argument seems weak.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Thanks Roger. That is a possible explanation I hadn't thought of.

TedM · 06-29-2011, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

The Suda, phi, 527 - the entry on Phlegon:

Quote:

Of Tralles,[1] freedman of Augustus Caesar, but some say of Hadrian:[2] historian. He wrote Olympiads in 16 books. Up to the 229th Olympiad[3] they contain what was done everywhere. And these in 8 books: Description of Sicily, On long-lived and marvelous persons, On the feasts of the Romans 3 books, On the places in Rome and by what names they are called, Epitome of Olympic victors in 2 books, and other things.[4]

About this Phlegon, as Philostorgius says,[5] to relate fully in detail what befell with the Jews, while Phlegon and Dio mentioned [these events] briefly and made them an appendix to their own narrative. Since this man does not exhibit at all prudently those who would lead to piety and other virtues, as those others do not either. Josephus, on the contrary, is like one who fears and takes care not to offend the [sc.pagan] Greeks.[6]

[1] In the Maeander valley, Asia Minor; Barrington Atlas Map 61 grid F2; present-day Aydin. cf. under alpha 3424, chi 525, and (for other citizens of it) alpha 4113, pi 2165.
[2] Modern scholarship accepts the latter (as indeed chronology demands: see next note).
[3] 137-140.
[4] cf. Photius, Bibliotheca ch.97.
[5] Besides the incomplete sentence, the name of a third historian is missing. The seventeenth-century scholar Valesius (Henri de Valois) suggested that it should be Josephus (iota 503, iota 504), who would be contrasted with Phlegon and (sc. Cassius) Dio (delta 1239). Valesius' second choice was Justus Tiberiensis (iota 450).
[6] Philostorgius, Ecclesiastical History 1.1 (p. 5 Bidez-Winkelmann). This excerpt is from the prologue, where apparently Philostorgius is comparing his new genre of church history with the work of earlier historians.

Iota, 450 is Ἰοῦστος

Quote:

Of Tiberias, in the province of Galilee; he himself attempted to compile a Jewish History and write certain commentaries; but Josephus proved this man a fraud. For he was writing at the same moment as Josephus.

Josephus discusses Justus in his Vita, 34 and 5. Eusebius mentions him under A.A.2113 in his Chronicle. Jerome, de viris illustribus 14. Stephanus Byzantinus s. Tiberias.

I thought that Justus and Josephus were contemporaries, but perhaps others know better.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Thanks. My list of other historians/writers of the time has just grown

. Re Justus and Josephus, they were contemporaries according to the Jewish Ency (same link as above):

Quote:

JUSTUS OF TIBERIAS: (print this article)

By : Richard Gottheil Samuel Krauss

ARTICLE HEADINGS:
With Josephus in Galilee.
His History of the Jewish War.
His Chronicle.

With Josephus in Galilee.

Historical writer and one of the leaders of the Jews against the Romans in Galilee in the year 66. What is known of him comes mostly from his political and literary enemy, Josephus Flavius; so that an exact biography of him can not be given. He was a man of Greek education and of moving eloquence. By his oratorical ability he prevailed on the Tiberians, who felt themselves slighted by the favor which Agrippa II. and Rome had shown at their expense to the people of Sepphoris, to revolt. An unnamed brother helped him in this task. With his followers Justus burned the villages that belonged to Gadara and Hippos (Josephus, "Vita," § 9), whose people had always been ill-disposed toward the Jews. Soon afterward Josephus came as governor to Galilee, and he persuaded the chief people of Tiberias, among them Justus, to demolish the palace of Herod the Tetrarch because it was ornamented with figures of animals. Josephus himself says he had to force the people to it (ib. § 12). From this it follows conclusively that the actual rebellion in Galilee was instigated mainly by Josephus rather than by Justus. Later, out of fear of the Romans, neither historian wished to admit in his writings his part in the matter; and each blamed the other. Even at the beginning of the war the Tiberians, and especially Justus and his father, Pistus, wished to break with Josephus andto attach themselves to John of Giscala, but Josephus frustrated the plan (ib. § 17). At one time Josephus caused the Tiberians who had been arrested, among them Justus and Pistus, to be taken out of prison; and while eating with them he suggested that it would be wiser for them to surrender to the Romans at a suitable opportunity. He reminded Justus that before he (Josephus) had entered on his office, the brother of Justus had had his hands cut off by the Galileans, who claimed that he had forged letters, and that furthermore Jesus, Justus' sister's husband, had had to suffer from anarchy. The next day he let Justus and his followers go free (ib. § 35). Jesus and the sister of Justus were killed in Gamala (ib. § 37). Still Justus continued to agitate against Josephus (ib. § 54).

When Galilee was subdued, the inhabitants of Decapolis, primarily those of Gadara and Hippos, denounced Justus before Vespasian, and demanded his punishment. Agrippa was ordered to put him to death; but on the plea of his sister Berenice he merely imprisoned him (ib. §§ 65, 74). Justus had previously fled to Agrippa at Berytus (ib. § 70), and had apparently made himself so popular at court (ib. § 74) that Agrippa even gave him money (ib. § 65). For some unknown crime Agrippa twice put Justus in prison; and the latter was often advised to escape out of his native city. Nevertheless Agrippa made him his secretary (τάζις ἐπιστολῶν), but when he proved unreliable he was expelled by the king (ib.).

His History of the Jewish War.

During his enforced leisure he wrote his history of the Jewish war, in which, being a man of mean nature, he very likely out of revenge made Agrippa appear in a decidedly unfavorable light. This was probably the reason why he did not publish his work until after Agrippa's death (100), although he had then had it completed for twenty years (ib.). Josephus with justice charges him with not daring to publish his book during the lifetimes of Vespasian, Titus, and Agrippa, and also that he did not use the records of Vespasian. Even the events in Galilee, e.g., the siege of Jotapata, are not exactly described; yet Justus thought himself to be the most reliable narrator of these events. The "Vita," the autobiography of Josephus, was directed against this very work of Justus (ib.). Justus' book was, of course, written in Greek, and was probably entitled Ιστορία ἡ τοῦ Ιουδαϊκοῦ Πολέμου τοῦ Οὐεσπασιανοῦ (Stephanus of Byzantium, s.v. Τιβεριάς). It is mentioned by Eusebius ("Hist. Eccl." iii. 10, 8), by Jerome ("De Viris Illustribus," § 14), and by Suidas (s.v. Ιοῦστος), probably not independently, but following Josephus, since the latter's work, approved by Titus, had caused that of his rival to be forgotten.

His Chronicle.

Furthermore, Justus was the author of Ξρονικόν Ιουδαίων Βασιλέων τῶν ἐν τοῖς Στέμμασιν, a chronicle of the Jewish people from Moses to the death of Agrippa II. Photius ("Bibl." Cod. 33) describes it as being written in a very curtailed form. Use was probably made of this work by Sextus Julius Africanus, from whom Eusebius in his chronicle and the Byzantine historian Syncellus draw material. Certain notes in later historians which are not to be found in Josephus probably came from the chronicle of Justus through the excerpts of Africanus (e.g., Syncellus, ed. Dindorf, i. 588). It has been supposed that the account of the heathen-Philistine origin of the Herodian house, related by Africanus, came originally from Justus ("R. E. J." xlv. 45).

If "Justus" is to be read in a corrupted passage of Suidas (s.v. πλέγων), it would appear that the former treated Jewish history at greater length than Phlegon; also that Justus dilated upon the morality and other virtues of the Jews, whereas Josephus, according to Suidas, aimed to give the Greeks no offense. In Diogenes Laertius (ii. 5, § 41) is a quotation from Justus' chronicle in the form of an anecdote concerning Plato at the trial of Socrates. It would seem, then, that Photius had seen only an extract from the chronicle. If Justus arranged his book in the form of a royal genealogy (ἐν τοῖς στέμμασιν), he may have written objectionably of the Herodians. His remark about Plato seems to show that he shared the Hellenistic belief that Greek wisdom was borrowed from the Jews. Schlatter believes that even Josephus made use of Justus' work in his "Antiquities." Jerome (l.c.) mentions a third work by Justus, a short commentary on the Scriptures; but nothing further is known of it.

In Hebrew, Justus was probably called "Zadok," though the name "Justus" was very common among the Jews at that time. It is possible that, like Josephus, he lived in Rome toward the close of his life, and that he died there.

Bibliography: Fabricius, Bibliotheca Grœca, ed. Harles, v. 61, x. 691;
Müller, Fragmenta Historicorum Grœcorum, iii. 523;
Grätz, in Monatsschrift, 1877, pp. 337 et seq.;
idem, Gesch. 4th ed., iii. 555;
Schlatter, Der Chronograph aus dem Zehnten Jahre Antonins, pp. 37-47, Berlin, 1894;
Schürer, Gesch. 3d ed., i. 58-63; comp. ib. p. 285, note 32.G. S.

Minimalist · 06-29-2011, 05:55 PM

I'm not so sure that I'd accept the word of Josephus when it came to a political opponent's life. Josephus was a traitor, after all. Perhaps Justus was more of a patriot?

aa5874 · 06-29-2011, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

....Thanks Roger. That is a possible explanation I hadn't thought of.

You may be confusing speculation with explanation. One must understand that without any real evidence one can speculate not explain.

stephan huller · 06-30-2011, 12:40 AM

Philostorgius wrote a pro-Arian history of the Church and the literal home of Arianism was the martyrium of St. Mark on the eastern shores of Alexandria. This was the traditional base of Egyptian Christianity and the undoubtedly the very place that Origen derived much of his learning. It is difficult to make sense of the details of what went on here but Julius Africanus was drawn to Alexandria it was to meet Heraclas the future (or perhaps present) Pope. Origen and Julius Africanus knew and used Justus (Origen's statement appears in the Latin portion of the Commentary on Matthew) as most likely Clement did as well (though I've seen no direct evidence of that). My point is that it isn't crazy that Philostorgius the Arian had knew Justus's Chronicle. In fact I think it is highly probable.

TedM · 06-30-2011, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

....Thanks Roger. That is a possible explanation I hadn't thought of.

You may be confusing speculation with explanation. One must understand that without any real evidence one can speculate not explain.

The word 'possible' in front of explanation renders your comments moot--ie the way I used it "possible explanation" = "speculation".

TedM · 06-30-2011, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Philostorgius wrote a pro-Arian history of the Church and the literal home of Arianism was the martyrium of St. Mark on the eastern shores of Alexandria. This was the traditional base of Egyptian Christianity and the undoubtedly the very place that Origen derived much of his learning. It is difficult to make sense of the details of what went on here but Julius Africanus was drawn to Alexandria it was to meet Heraclas the future (or perhaps present) Pope. Origen and Julius Africanus knew and used Justus (Origen's statement appears in the Latin portion of the Commentary on Matthew) as most likely Clement did as well (though I've seen no direct evidence of that). My point is that it isn't crazy that Philostorgius the Arian had knew Justus's Chronicle. In fact I think it is highly probable.

What I'm curious to know is this:

1. Do we have good reason to believe that Justus would be expected to mention Jesus in any of his works? (proximity in time and place to Jesus, style and content of his writings, etc.)

2. If yes, do we have good reason to believe that he didn't mention Jesus (ie
direct comments (like Proteus), knowledge that certain people had read the works in which we would expect Jesus to be mentioned AND that those same people would have good reason to comment on the mention, etc.).

3. Can the same be said for anyone else (perhaps some of the writers mentioned above)?

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06-29-2011, 05:55 PM	#6
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	I'm not so sure that I'd accept the word of Josephus when it came to a political opponent's life. Josephus was a traitor, after all. Perhaps Justus was more of a patriot?

06-30-2011, 12:40 AM	#8
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Philostorgius wrote a pro-Arian history of the Church and the literal home of Arianism was the martyrium of St. Mark on the eastern shores of Alexandria. This was the traditional base of Egyptian Christianity and the undoubtedly the very place that Origen derived much of his learning. It is difficult to make sense of the details of what went on here but Julius Africanus was drawn to Alexandria it was to meet Heraclas the future (or perhaps present) Pope. Origen and Julius Africanus knew and used Justus (Origen's statement appears in the Latin portion of the Commentary on Matthew) as most likely Clement did as well (though I've seen no direct evidence of that). My point is that it isn't crazy that Philostorgius the Arian had knew Justus's Chronicle. In fact I think it is highly probable.

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