Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mg01 · 02-29-2008, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

I have just read Psalm 22.

This doesn't seem like any prophecies either.

It just seems to be a poem written by King David singing it to God.

it seems David is talking about himself in a metaphorical way. How do we know he was alluding to Jesus?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22

This is getting stranger and stranger for me.

I don't consider it prophecy either, nor that he was alluding to Jesus, but the similarity is hard to dismiss...

Quote:

Mark 15:24 And they crucified him, and divided his clothes among them, casting lots to decide what each should take.

Psalm 22:18 they divide my clothes among themselves, and for my clothing they cast lots.

Quote:

Mark 15:29 Those who passed by mocked him, shaking their heads and saying, 'Aha! You who would destroy the temple and build it in three days,

Mark 15:31 In the same way the chief priests, along with the scribes, were also mocking him among themselves and saying, 'He saved others; he cannot save himself.

Mark 15:32 Let the Messiah, the King of Israel, come down from the cross now, so that we may see and believe.' Those who were crucified with him also taunted him.

Psalm 22:7 All who see me mock at me; they make mouths at me, they shake their heads;

Quote:

Mark 15:34 At three o'clock Jesus cried out with a loud voice, 'Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?' which means, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'

Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?

Also, drawing from Amos...

Quote:

Mark 15:33 When it was noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon.

Amos 8:9 On that day, says the Lord God, I will make the sun go down at noon, and darken the earth in broad daylight.

Compare also the other elements from the article. Believers tend to take these things as fulfillment where as skeptics see it as source material.

Half-Life · 02-29-2008, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mg01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

I have just read Psalm 22.

This doesn't seem like any prophecies either.

It just seems to be a poem written by King David singing it to God.

it seems David is talking about himself in a metaphorical way. How do we know he was alluding to Jesus?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22

This is getting stranger and stranger for me.

I don't consider it prophecy either, nor that he was alluding to Jesus, but the similarity is hard to dismiss...

Also, drawing from Amos...

Quote:

Mark 15:33 When it was noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon.

Amos 8:9 On that day, says the Lord God, I will make the sun go down at noon, and darken the earth in broad daylight.

Compare also the other elements from the article. Believers tend to take these things as fulfillment where as skeptics see it as source material.

Yes, but if you read Psalm 22, David is just saying "My God my god why hast thou forsaken me?" He's talking about himself and wondering why God isn't there or not helping him.

he didn't write "This is what the cruficifed Messiah Jesus will say on the cross in the first century shortly before expiring: My God My God why hast thou forsaken me?"

Half-Life · 02-29-2008, 02:33 PM

For example, System of a Down has a song where they say "My god why have you forsaken me, in your thoughts forsaken me?"

Perhaps the prophecy was about system of a down writing this song.

makerowner · 02-29-2008, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

For example, System of a Down has a song where they say "My god why have you forsaken me, in your thoughts forsaken me?"

Perhaps the prophecy was about system of a down writing this song.

Yeah, that's basically the point of critical scholarship. (One of them.) Most of the prophecies that Jesus "fulfilled" are better explained as literary dependencies in the Gospels.

Buck Laser · 02-29-2008, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolutionary

The virgin birth is right in the text of the gospels. How do any Christians dismiss it without dismissing every other miracle contained therein?

Well the PROPHECY can be dismissed, but then why was he born of a Virgin?

how does anyone know?

It had something to do with a particular interpretation of some OT prophecies. Some bits of these prophecies prolly got tangled up with some other middle eastern religions at the time. The stories about the virgin birth came along a good many years after the appearance of the core of the gospels.

As myth, the virgin birth is a pretty good way to infer the divine nature of Christ. As factual assertion, it's beyond consideration.

schilling.klaus · 02-29-2008, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

So was Jesus born of a virgin? or was he born of a non-virgin?

because that verse you showed says he was born of a virgin.

However, if there was no prophecy, how could he be born of a virgin?

Jesus was not born at all, but is preexistant and immortal.
Jesus is The Logos of hellenic philosophy, not such an insignificant thing as a human being.

The birth story is to be understood allegorically, not literally,
as pointed out in several texts from Nag Hammadi.

Prophecy is just a rhetorical device of the Roman Catholic church.

Klaus Schilling

Sheshbazzar · 02-29-2008, 11:47 PM

In the poular imagination, The "Logos" soon grew legs and arms and walked around doing all sorts wonderful things, they soon gave him a proper name, and a "history" to go along with it.

schilling.klaus · 03-01-2008, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

In the poular imagination, The "Logos" soon grew legs and arms and walked around doing all sorts wonderful things, they soon gave him a proper name, and a "history" to go along with it. :)

This is already summed up in the prologue of the Gospel according to John.

Klaus Schilling

Huon · 03-01-2008, 05:33 AM

Quote:

... qui propter nos homines , et propter nostram salutem descendit de caelis, et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine, et homo factus est;
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man;

Nicaea 325 CE

Now, some Christians are not Nicaean Christians... and I, an atheist, am not giving certificates of good or bad Christian belief.

Huon · 03-01-2008, 05:51 AM

Another remark :

Some persons did not notice that almost one half of the catholics are women. Amazing, no ?

And many of these women belong to congregations of nuns, who claim that they are mystically married "to our Lord Jesus Christ". These nuns are one pillar of the catho Church.

What would happen to this branch of the RCC, if some pope, for instance Benedict XXXV, would say that the Holy Virgin story is simply a story devised to catch the benevolence of such women who are naïve enough to compare themselves with Mary ?

And, please, note that the pilgrimages to Lourdes, Fatima, Medjugorje, concern appearances of the Holy Virgin, not of the Christ, who does not seem concerned.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-29-2008, 02:33 PM	#23
Half-Life Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: A place in the Northern Hemisphere of Planet Earth Posts: 1,250	For example, System of a Down has a song where they say "My god why have you forsaken me, in your thoughts forsaken me?" Perhaps the prophecy was about system of a down writing this song.

02-29-2008, 11:47 PM	#27
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	In the poular imagination, The "Logos" soon grew legs and arms and walked around doing all sorts wonderful things, they soon gave him a proper name, and a "history" to go along with it.

03-01-2008, 05:51 AM	#30
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	Another remark : Some persons did not notice that almost one half of the catholics are women. Amazing, no ? And many of these women belong to congregations of nuns, who claim that they are mystically married "to our Lord Jesus Christ". These nuns are one pillar of the catho Church. What would happen to this branch of the RCC, if some pope, for instance Benedict XXXV, would say that the Holy Virgin story is simply a story devised to catch the benevolence of such women who are naïve enough to compare themselves with Mary ? And, please, note that the pilgrimages to Lourdes, Fatima, Medjugorje, concern appearances of the Holy Virgin, not of the Christ, who does not seem concerned.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.