Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dockeen · 07-01-2011, 07:54 PM

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This is a clear, unambiguous contradiction between the Torah and the letters of Paul.

Or who ever wrote some letters of Paul and stated or implied that they were Paul.

Sheshbazzar · 07-01-2011, 08:00 PM

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Do I understand you correctly that

1) the promised Messiah is Jesus of Nazareth,

NO. Where have I ever said that?

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2) Jesus of Nazareth's shed blood at his crucifixion was substitutionary sacrificial atonement for sin,

NO. Where have I ever said that?

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3) non-Christian Jews no longer offer the animal sacrifices, yet spurn the atoning sacrifice (shed blood) of Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, for their sin,

NO. Where have I ever said that?

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4) non-Christian Jews remain in their sin and, therefore, under the just wrath of God on their sin, because
5) the shed blood of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, which non-Christian Jews reject, is the only remedy God provides for sin?

NO. Where have I ever said that?

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This is what I understand you to be saying here.

Then your 'understanding' is wrong.

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Do I understand you correctly?

NO.

.

Sheshbazzar · 07-01-2011, 09:26 PM

THE DECALOGUE take #2 Exodus 34

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1. And Yahweh said to Moses, "Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke.

4 So he cut two tablets of stone like the first ones.
Then Moses rose early in the morning and went up Mount Sinai, as Yahweh had commanded him; and he took in his hand the two tablets of stone.

10. And He said: "Behold, I make a Covenant. Before all your people I will do marvels such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation; and all the people among whom you are shall see the work of Yahweh. For it is an awesome thing that I will do with you.

11. Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite.

12. Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst.

13. But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

14. For thou shalt worship no other EL: Yahweh, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous EL:

15. lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they play the harlot with their elohim and make sacrifice to their elohim, and one of them]invites you and you eat of his sacrifice,

16. and you take of his daughters for your sons, and his daughters play the harlot with their elohim and make your sons play the harlot with their elohim.

17. You shall make no molded elohi for yourselves.

18. The Feast of Unleavened Bread you shall keep. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you,
in the appointed time of the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt.

19. All that open the womb are Mine, and every male firstborn among your livestock, whether ox or sheep.

20. But the firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb. And if you will not redeem him, then you shall break his neck.
All the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem. And none shall appear before Me empty-handed.

21. Six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; in plowing time and in harvest you shall rest.

22. And you shall observe the Feast of Weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the year's end.

23. Three times in the year all your men shall appear before the Master, Yahweh Elohi of Israel.

24. For I will cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither will any man covet your land when you go up to appear before Yahweh your Elohi three times in the year.

25. You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with leaven, nor shall the sacrifice of the Feast of the Passover be left until morning.

26. The first of the firstfruits of your land you shall bring to the House of Yahweh your Elohi. You shall not boil a young goat in its mother's milk

27. Then Yahweh said to Moses, "Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a Covenant with you and with Israel.

"I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke." In case you missed what it was that was written on the first set of tablets.
In verse 1 Yahweh says that He will write on the tablets.
He must have developed a case of the back door trots, or maybe carpel tunnel syndrome, because by the time we get to verse 27, He's shoving the actual task of carving the writing on the two stone tablets off on old Moses.
Maybe Yahweh's finger got sore, or He got blisters doing all that carving the first time around?
Or perhaps he just had to go to the loo really really bad? :huh:

Anyway, anyone ever see this authentic version of The Ten Commandments posted on the wall of their church, or installed in any courthouse?

schriverja · 07-02-2011, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

<snipped>
The Decalogue was God's legislated moral duty to him, and to one another.
The Levitical laws are ceremonial laws, they are not moral laws.
<snipped>

Maybe I don't understand what you mean by Levitical Laws. If you mean anything other than the Decaloge I disagree with you that the Levitical Laws are ceremonial laws. There may be some that are ceremonial, but there's a lot that are, in fact, moral.

Some examples:

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“If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, 19 then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown. 20 They shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear. Deut 21:18-21

This doesn't read as a ceremonial imperative to me. Do you think this was obsoleted by the "new covenant"?

Or (the subheading above this passages is The Laws on Morality):

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13 “If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, 14 and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, ‘I took this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,’ 15 then the girl’s father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl’s virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. 16 The girl’s father shall say to the elders, ‘I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; 17 and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, “I did not find your daughter a virgin.” But this is the evidence of my daughter’s virginity.’ And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. 18 So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, 19 and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl’s father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
20 “But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin, 21 then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death because she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father’s house; thus you shall purge the evil from among you. Deut 22:13-21

Again, how was such a moral imperative fulfilled by Jesus' death?

And another:

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“If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor’s wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you. Deut. 22:23-24

How was this fulfilled by Jesus' death? It clearly isn't a ceremonial law.

There's several others with any glancing over of Deut chapters 21-25 will show.

If you don't consider these Levitical, then should Christians still be following them?

edit to add:

Or how about these passages from Leviticus 19, are they ceremonial or moral?

Quote:

11 “‘Do not steal.

“‘Do not lie.

“‘Do not deceive one another.

12 “‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

13 “‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor.

“‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired worker overnight.

14 “‘Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD.

15 “‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

16 “‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people.

“‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the LORD.

17 “‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.

18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

19 “‘Keep my decrees.

“‘Do not mate different kinds of animals.

“‘Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.

“‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

20 “‘If a man sleeps with a female slave who is promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment.[a] Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the tent of meeting for a guilt offering to the LORD. 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the LORD for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.

23 “‘When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden.[b] For three years you are to consider it forbidden[c]; it must not be eaten. 24 In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the LORD. 25 But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the LORD your God.

26 “‘Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.

“‘Do not practice divination or seek omens.

27 “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

28 “‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.

29 “‘Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.

30 “‘Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the LORD.

31 “‘Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.

32 “‘Stand up in the presence of the aged, show respect for the elderly and revere your God. I am the LORD.

...

In your view, simon, should these be followed by Christians, or were they completely obsoleted...?

Perspicuo · 07-02-2011, 07:02 AM

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Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perspicuo

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when the purpose for which the Levitical priesthood and the laws based on it were given is accomplished, they are set aside.

This is a Christian pretext, and addresses the fact of why the Law has been dumped for an amendment.

Does the OT contain an article for amendments? Even if it did, which I am unaware of, still it would be a logical inconsistency to have a loophole for amendment or even radical substitution, alongside "my law is eternal".

So it is clear to you too that the Law is not eternal, you just give a pretext, but then again, it is not eternal, it has been abrogated (discontinuated with authority). Even if God has the authority to do so (and the main thread of the whole Bible is he can do anything he wants), what he said was not true. God is a liar. Another inconsistency, this time with a attribute of God.

"Read my lips: my law is eternal"

Read my lips, the Sinaitic covenant, which God promised in Jer 31:31-32 would be replaced,

was not an eternal covenant, it was a conditional covenant (Ex 19:5).

Oh alright I stand corrected. Then the jerk was this guy:
Psalm 111:7-8: "The works of His hands are verity and judgment; all His commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness."

(BTW: Ex19:5 "Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession." doesn't say, "If not, I will change it" and enters in contradiction with the psalmist).

Logically inconsistent.

Davka · 07-02-2011, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Anyway, anyone ever see this authentic version of The Ten Commandments posted on the wall of their church, or installed in any courthouse?

I've seen them! An angel came and told me where to dig, and I unearthed them, but they were in proto-Hebraic writing so I couldn't read them. So the angel loaned me a magic pair of dice to translate them with, and then he told me to show them to my brother and my first cousin before he took them away into Heaven so we wouldn't worship them.

But anyways, I have the only true translation of the 10 Commandments, which coincidentally say that whoever finds them gets to have sex with all the young hotties he wants, and to reward his followers with opium and cheesecake.

Who wants cheesecake? :goodevil:

Sheshbazzar · 07-02-2011, 08:17 AM

One great thing about having various 'simon's' present their arguments here, is that we actually search the texts daily, and are much more aware of their actual contents than the average church going X-ian.

As I see it, this growing knowledge, and awareness of the Bible's faults, and Xianities blind spots will eventually discredit, strip naked, and put to open public shame this false religion. And haha, this will be a fulfillment of the prophecy of John in Revelations chapters 17 and 18.

When this is accomplished, and Xianity is finally fully recognised by every nation on earth for the perversion that it is, The Scriptures and THE LAW of Yahweh will be vindicated and triumphant.

I am as certain that the religion of Xianity is doomed, as I am that the sun, moon, and stars, AND the eternal LAW of Yahweh will still be in place tomorrow, and forever.

leh'OLAM____v'AD, __AMETH___vh'AMEIN,____AMOON'ah____oo'AMEN;
To Forever and ever,_ True,___and Faithful,__ Steadfast,____and Confirmed;

alleu'YAH! leh'OLAM! :love:

.

dockeen · 07-02-2011, 08:18 AM

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Who wants cheesecake?

With a cherry on top?

Zenaphobe · 07-02-2011, 08:29 AM

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Originally Posted by dockeen

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Who wants cheesecake?

With a cherry on top?

You mean it doesn't come with opium on top?

Typical religious bait and switch bullshit. :Cheeky:

Davka · 07-02-2011, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

[God's words for it are "a new covenant,". . .not like the covenant he made with them

when he brought them out of Egypt, which is the Sinaitic conditional covenant (Ex 19:5).

God made numerous "new" covenants, which were "not like" the covenants he made before. This does not in any way imply that the previous covenants were therefore null and void.

- The covenant which gave Abraham's descendants the Promised Land was "not like" the covenant made with Noah after the Flood.
- The covenant of circumcision was "not like" the covenant which gave Abraham's descendants the Promised Land.
- The numerous covenants made in the wilderness were "not like" the covenant of circumcision.

The covenant which YHWH made with the Hebrews during their fictional trek from Egypt begins in Exodus 20, and continues through Exodus 23. Nowhere in those pages is there any indication that it is a "conditional" covenant, or that it will become obsolete. Your reference, Exodus 19:5, says "Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine." Nowhere does it say "if you do not obey my voice and keep my covenant, it shall become null and void." And if you read the Book of the Covenant (Exodus 20 - Exodus 23) you will find that most of it consists of a set of civil laws for the ruling of the Hebrew people.

There are conditional covenants in Leviticus, but these are not the Book of the Law set down in Exodus.

In fact, the account of the Book of the Law in Exodus presents us with yet another glaring contradiction. The Book of the Law is first revealed to Moses in chapters 20-23. In chapter 24, YHWH tells Moses to come back to the mountain and YHWH will write the entire Book of the Law on stone tablets.

But in chapter 16, long before the Book of the Law was dictated to Moses - let alone written in stone - Aaron places an omer of manna in a jar and puts the jar with the stone tablets of the Law - which have not yet been written!

For even more fun, chapter 16 has YHWH telling Moses that he has (previously) given the Hebrews the command to keep the Sabbath, when in fact Exodus 16 is the first time that the word Sabbath appears in the Bible!

And just in case you think that chapter 16 somehow got out of order, the writer is quick to put that idea to rest: Chapter 16 begins with "The whole Israelite community set out from Elim and came to the Desert of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after they had come out of Egypt." and proceeds to tell what happened in the Desert of Sin. Then Chapter 17 begins with "The whole Israelite community set out from the Desert of Sin, traveling from place to place as the LORD commanded." and proceeds to tell the story of what happened after they left the Desert of Sin.

So not only does the NT blatantly contradict the OT account of the eternal nature of YHWH's covenant, the OT contradicts itself as to how, where, and when the covenant was given!

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07-02-2011, 08:17 AM	#357
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	One great thing about having various 'simon's' present their arguments here, is that we actually search the texts daily, and are much more aware of their actual contents than the average church going X-ian. As I see it, this growing knowledge, and awareness of the Bible's faults, and Xianities blind spots will eventually discredit, strip naked, and put to open public shame this false religion. And haha, this will be a fulfillment of the prophecy of John in Revelations chapters 17 and 18. When this is accomplished, and Xianity is finally fully recognised by every nation on earth for the perversion that it is, The Scriptures and THE LAW of Yahweh will be vindicated and triumphant. I am as certain that the religion of Xianity is doomed, as I am that the sun, moon, and stars, AND the eternal LAW of Yahweh will still be in place tomorrow, and forever. leh'OLAM____v'AD, __AMETH___vh'AMEIN,____AMOON'ah____oo'AMEN; To Forever and ever,_ True,___and Faithful,__ Steadfast,____and Confirmed; alleu'YAH! leh'OLAM! :love: .

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