Freethought & Rationalism Archive

offa · 11-28-2003, 11:58 AM

Bede replied, "Offa, you may be assured, I am not calling you a liar. I can't understand a word you say but I'm sure you are honest."

(Offa) Thanks Bede. I know that you are one of the few that does not fall for the Doherty b.s. that John was not written 1st. You never said that John was 1st, but you never follwed his ambiguous reasoning that the other gospels were ahead of John.

Hugo Holbling · 11-28-2003, 12:10 PM

I am also an idiot of sorts, JM, and i would even wager that i will be crowned king of such folk before you. Even so, responding in kind is self-defeating here and anywhere else, as you have (and hopefully everyone else has) seen. Due to my stupidity, i often struggle to see why this kind of behaviour has any place in an academic forum where we all (even lurkers like me) hope to learn something.

Steven Carr · 11-28-2003, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hugo Holbling
Due to my stupidity, i often struggle to see why this kind of behaviour has any place in an academic forum where we all (even lurkers like me) hope to learn something.

Well, hopefully, you will be able to follow the links I gave to where Thallus' writings are discussed (the German is pretty hard, although there are few blank lines to distract you)

I even gave links to Christian usage of Thallus, so you can see the other point of view.

Steven Carr · 11-28-2003, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesus McGod
Hugo, this is what I hoped would happen was in reponse to my O/P: someone would (Toto did actually) would say "Oh try such-and-such book by Dr. so-and-so. He is an intelligent and respected Christian apologist, who writes on the subject of JC historicity, and is honest enough not to cite Thallus, in fact, he even shows why Thallus citations (ancient and modern) are suspect."

That is what I was hoping for. Instead I got attacked.

It was nice (and very flattering) of Toto to refer you to one of my posts (a thread I started), where I pointed out France's demolition job on the usual suspects cited as evidence of Jesus.

France's article can be found at

http://www.leaderu.com/truth/1truth21.html

Peter Kirby · 11-28-2003, 01:30 PM

Additional sources mentioning Thallus:

Gerd Theissen, The Historical Jesus, pp. 84-85.

R. T. France, The Evidence for Jesus, p. 24

Instead of typing out the quotes, I ask that you look up these books. Also, it would be worthwhile to check for the entry in the Anchor Bible Dictionary.

Since most NT scholars do not discuss Phlegon or Thallus in their works (e.g. it is not in the index of Wright's latest monstrous book on the resurrection), and since we can't be sure of what Julius Africanus had seen when he made his comment (opinions vary), the value of such a "litmus test" is highly dubious. To obtain knowledge in a variety of areas and to apply them to any author you are reading (xian or not) would be more sane.

My recommendation is to close this thread.

best,
Peter Kirby

CX · 11-28-2003, 08:11 PM

If the tone in this thread doesn't change immediately, I'm going to lock it. Let's stick to reasoned argumentation please.

Jimi

Vinnie · 11-28-2003, 09:18 PM

A pictorial representation of this thread:

At any rate, I got the

and

Vinnie

P.S. None of I Thess 2:13-16 is an interpolation and anyone who disagrees with me is a liar and a fraud

Vinnie · 11-28-2003, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesus McGod
When a Christian apologist, writing on the subject of Jesus historicity cites Thallus as evidence of the resurrection, I automatically brush him/her off as a dogmatic whacko.

Can you come up with a better theory than the resurrection as an explanation of Christian origins amd all the relevant facts? I am still waiting for one myself and I don't believe Jesus rose from the dead!

Vinnie

Jesus McGod · 11-28-2003, 10:37 PM

CX: I am frankly amazed that you didn't lock it last night. I certainly would have, if I was the moderator.

11-28-2003, 12:10 PM	#42
Hugo Holbling Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Self-banned in 2005 Posts: 1,344	Well met, sir fool... I am also an idiot of sorts, JM, and i would even wager that i will be crowned king of such folk before you. Even so, responding in kind is self-defeating here and anywhere else, as you have (and hopefully everyone else has) seen. Due to my stupidity, i often struggle to see why this kind of behaviour has any place in an academic forum where we all (even lurkers like me) hope to learn something.

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11-28-2003, 11:58 AM	#41
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	Bede replied, "Offa, you may be assured, I am not calling you a liar. I can't understand a word you say but I'm sure you are honest." (Offa) Thanks Bede. I know that you are one of the few that does not fall for the Doherty b.s. that John was not written 1st. You never said that John was 1st, but you never follwed his ambiguous reasoning that the other gospels were ahead of John.

11-28-2003, 01:30 PM	#45
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Additional sources mentioning Thallus: Gerd Theissen, The Historical Jesus, pp. 84-85. R. T. France, The Evidence for Jesus, p. 24 Instead of typing out the quotes, I ask that you look up these books. Also, it would be worthwhile to check for the entry in the Anchor Bible Dictionary. Since most NT scholars do not discuss Phlegon or Thallus in their works (e.g. it is not in the index of Wright's latest monstrous book on the resurrection), and since we can't be sure of what Julius Africanus had seen when he made his comment (opinions vary), the value of such a "litmus test" is highly dubious. To obtain knowledge in a variety of areas and to apply them to any author you are reading (xian or not) would be more sane. My recommendation is to close this thread. best, Peter Kirby

11-28-2003, 08:11 PM	#46
CX Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Portlandish Posts: 2,829	If the tone in this thread doesn't change immediately, I'm going to lock it. Let's stick to reasoned argumentation please. Jimi

11-28-2003, 09:18 PM	#47
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	A pictorial representation of this thread: At any rate, I got the and Vinnie P.S. None of I Thess 2:13-16 is an interpolation and anyone who disagrees with me is a liar and a fraud

11-28-2003, 10:37 PM	#49
Jesus McGod Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 168	CX: I am frankly amazed that you didn't lock it last night. I certainly would have, if I was the moderator.

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