James Madison

Can an analysis of the "evidence" commence any time soon? Very few have actually labored to engage the evidence of the documentary itself in any persuasive manner.

Diogenes the Cynic, I understand you do not think the Hebrews and Hyskos were the same. You assert there isn't any evidence to demonstrate an exodus transpired. This of course assumes the evidence discovered at the relevant sites is not "evidence". However, can you address some of the evidence he documentary relied upon in an attempt to prove the Hyskos were the Hewbrews? They rely upon some evidence which does corroborate their claim.

1. Allegedly a ring of legal and political importance discovered in Egypt, actually the area where the Hyskos ruled, with a Hebrew inscription beginning with a "Y" and translated, "Jacob's son/Son of Jospeh/Father of Joseph?"

2. Supposedly Egyptian papyrus which purportedly describing a hail/fire event similar to the account depicted in Exodus.

3. Presumably many graves of young Egyptian male children.

4. What about the hieroglyphics which presumbaly translate to discuss the splitting of a body of water?

miss anthrope

Well here's my shot at it. Alas, we didn't record the show so I'm doing this from memory, and I will admit that I missed part of the beginning.

I had several problems with the show. First, the presentation jumped all over the place. I'm ADHD and have a short attention span, but the show kept switching through their evidence at an alarming speed. No one in the show ever paused to offer other possible causes for any of the nine plagues - just different translations or interpretations of where things were located. That was sloppy science at best. No one raised any substantial arguments, which meant no one refuted any arguments.
For instance, why did they assume that the nine plagues happened even during the same generation or the same area of Egypt? Because the Bible said so? And if the volcanoe eruption ultimately caused the Exodus, why were those panels supposedly depicting the Exodus beneath the layer of volcanic ash? Either someone violated the speed of light or the narrator only saw and interpretted archeological finds to fit his pre-conceived notion of the Exodus. What exactly was the chronology and length of time of events that they was suggesting?

If the young first sons slept on a bed, why not the parents? Surely they would have a bed, or was it so much higher that they did not succumb to CO2 poisoning? And how young were these "young male children"? Is it possible that they were old enough to visit prostitutes and contract syphyllis? (And there is some question of whether syphyllis existed in the Old World before any encounter with the New World) Or could it be that small scale civil wars occurred, causing the death of many young soldiers? Even if there were deaths due to CO2 poisoning was it even contemporary with the other disasters?

Also, I was under the impression that the gas leak which supposedly killed the young men also turned the water red. In fact, I thought the narrator originally said the gas contained sulfur and iron. Sulfur can be fatal but it also reeks, so it's not exactly undetectable to humans. Did I miss a part where they talked about two different pockets of gas?

Basically, I felt the producer's approach to history and science was woefully inadequate. His interpretations of those infamous panels I joked about earlier only re-inforced my opinion that he saw only what he wished to see. The final nail in the coffin, so to speak.

Diogenes the Cynic

To be precise, I've said that the Hyksos and the Israelites were not one and the same. There is no evidence for any Israelite presence or enslavement in Egypt.
I haven't seen the show, so I need some more specific information on the evidence. I've never heard of any such ring, can't find it on an internet search, and I doubt a Hyksos era ring could have a Hebrew inscription on it since the Hebrew language didn't exist yet. There was Hyksos king with the name Y'qb-hr which some argue is a form of the Hebrew Jacob-el. There are some scarabs with this king's name on them. Is that what you saw? If so, it doesn't mean much. Jacobel (or its precursors anyway) was a pre-Israelite name and a fairly common one.
Would that have been the Ipuwer Papyrus? It may or may not describe some natural disasters (possibly related to the Theran explosion) but it predates both the Hyksos and the alleged time of the Exodus.
Again, I don't know the specifics of this, but so what? High child and infant moratlity rates were a fact of life in the ancient world. So were epidemics and plagues.
Woud that be the El-Arish Stone?

James Madison

Well, perhaps you could watch the show because I am probably not accurately describing the evidence. Yes they found a ring with a Hebrew inscription on it at a dig site near Avaris? They found a considerable number of graves of young Egyptian males, the show gives the inference this is a disproportionately high number, in other words NOT common.

While I myself have some questions about the show and its presentation, I am just wondering what your thoughts may be?

The show airs tomorrow at 8 (not sure what time zone).

Diogenes the Cynic

Avaris was the Hyksos capitol. There are some scarabs and I think maybe a seal with the name of the Hyksos king, Y'qb-hr, but the inscriptions are not (and cannot be) in Hebrew. The Hebrew language did not emerge from Canaanitish until about 500 years after the Hyksos expulsion. Nothing with a Hebrew inscription could have any association with the Hyksos. I can't really say any more without knowing more precisely what is being claimed.
Well, I think I would take suggestions and inferences made by shows like this with a lot of salt. There could be any number of explanations for this, including plagues or wars.
I'll look for it. One other thing I should have pointed out in my first post, though is that all these pieces of "evidence" are from significantly variant time periods. Watch out for that. They seem to want to place the Exodus simultaneously in the 17th, 16th and perhaps 12th centuries BCE. They need to pick a lane, I think.

JoeWallack

JW:
It's Amazing how Christian archeology can find evidence of baby wipe-outs and Moses' Hearing Aide in the desert but can't find Ancient Historian testimony in the local library:

Strabo Geography Book XVI, Chapter 2

" 34 As for Judaea, its western extremities towards Casius are occupied by the Idumaeans and by the lake. The Idumaeans are Nabataeans,91 but owing to a sedition they were banished from there,92 joined the Judaeans, and shared in the same customs with them. The greater part of the region near the sea is occupied by Lake Sirbonis and by the country continuous with the lake as far as Jerusalem; for this city is also near the sea; for, as I have already said,93 it is visible from the seaport of Iopê. This region lies towards the north; and it is inhabited in general, as is each place in particular, by mixed stocks of people from Aegyptian and Arabian and Phoenician tribes; for such are those who occupy Galilee and Hiericus94 and Philadelphia and Samaria, which last Herod surnamed Sebastê.95 But though the inhabitants mixed up thus, the most prevalent of the accredited reports in regard to the temple at Jerusalem represents the ancestors of the present Judaeans, as they are called, as Aegyptians.

p283 35 Moses, namely, was one of the Aegyptian priests, and held a part of Lower Aegypt, as it is called, but he went away from there to Judaea, since he was displeased with the state of affairs there, and was accompanied by many people who worshipped the Divine Being. For he says, and taught, that the Aegyptians were mistaken in representing the Divine Being by the images of beasts and cattle,96 as were also the Libyans; and that the Greeks were also wrong in modelling gods in human form; for, according to him, God is this one thing alone that encompasses us all and encompasses land and sea — the thing which we call heaven, or universe, or the nature of all that exists. What man, then, if he has sense, could be bold enough to fabricate an image of God resembling any creature amongst us? Nay, people should leave off all image-carving, and, setting apart a sacred precinct and a worthy sanctuary, should worship God without an image; and people who have good dreams should sleep in the sanctuary, not only themselves on their own behalf, but also others for the rest of the people; and those who live self-restrained and righteous lives should always expect some blessing or gift or sign from God, but no other should expect them.

36 Now Moses, saying things of this kind, persuaded not a few thoughtful men and led them away to this place where the settlement of Jerusalem now is; and he easily took possession of the place, since it was not a place that would be looked on with envy, nor yet one for which anyone would make a serious fight; for it is rocky, and, although it itself p285is well supplied with water, its surrounding territory is barren and waterless, and the part of the territory within a radius of sixty stadia is also rocky beneath the surface.97 At the same time Moses, instead of using arms, put forward as defence his sacrifices and his Divine Being, being resolved to seek a seat of worship for Him98 and promising to deliver to the people a kind of worship and a kind of ritual which would not oppress those who adopted them either with expenses or with divine obsessions or with other absurd troubles. Now Moses enjoyed fair repute with these people, and organised no ordinary kind of government, since the peoples all round, one and all, came over to him, because of his dealings with them and of the prospects he held out to them.

37 His successors for some time abided by the same course, acting righteously and being truly pious towards God; but afterwards, in the first place, superstitious men were appointed to the priesthood, and then tyrannical people; and from superstition arose abstinence from flesh, from which it is their custom to abstain even to‑day, and circumcisions and excisions99 and other observances of the kind. And from the tyrannies arose the bands of robbers;100 for some revolted and harassed the country, both their own country and that of their neighbours, whereas others, co-operating with the rulers, seized the property of others and subdued much of Syria and Phoenicia. But still they had respect for their acropolis, since they did not loathe it as the seat of tyranny, but honoured and revered it as a holy place."



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Kosh

Very interesting. But....

If he dates to 2000 years ago, I wonder what his source would have been for the "real" Moses history. By that date, the mythology of Moses was already well developed.

James Madison

Yeah I do know they found a ring, well actually the archaeologist at the site located the ring, and there was a Hebrew inscription on the ring. The ring was a "seal" representing state authority. I will record the show on Saturday so I can better convey the claims it makes here. Yes, however, I do accurately recall a ring with the seal of the state attached to it with the Hebrew inscription on it. These are the "claims" made by the show in regards to the ring.

The show also referenced papyrus paper discussing a hail storm event, they reference a stone with hieroglyphics, and so forth.

paracletos

I think the show has great production value, especially in the realm of computer graphics. I think the theories espoused are certainly interesting. From the very start it was rather clear about being slanted and quick to point out the divergence of the theories it espoused from traditional ones. Still, it was most informative.

The most negative aspects I found in viewing it were the steps taken in the course of research in gaining access to 'information' (sites in Egypt, etc.) that seemed to be denied when a more openly forthright approach was considered. These may be what are considered 'necessary' and reaslistic approaches to research and journalism, but I found the 'dishonesty' by both sides (that is, government sources leaning toward restricting access and the researchers who practiced deceptive politics to get at what they wanted) to be somewhat compromising of the 'truthfulness' of the presentation as a whole, fostering an atmosphere of continued distrust, and possibly jeopardizing future archeological access. IMHO.

waked

hi<
had had any one the chance to read THE BIBLE UNEARTHED by ISRAEL FINKELSTEIN and NEIL ASHER SILBERMAN ?
let me Q :
according to the biblical account,the children of iSRAEL wandered in the desert and of the Sinai peninsula,moving around and camping in different places, for a full forty years.even if the number of fleeing Israelites is wildly exaggerated or can be interpreted as representing smaller units of people, the text describes the survival of a great number of people under the most challenging conditions..... repeated archaeoligal surveys in all regoins of the peninsuga,including the mountainous area around the traditional site of mount sinai,have yielded only negative evidence: not even a single shred ,no structure,not a single house,no trace of an ancient encampent. One may argue that a relatively small band of wandering Israelites cannot be expected to leave materail remains behind. but modern archaeological are quite capable of tracing even the very meager remains of hunter-gatherers and pastoral nomads all over the world. ... there is simply no such evidence at the supposed time of exodus in the 13th century B,C.E.
:wave: