Wandering Traveller

But where's the logic in reading the word (raqiya') in the sense of an extended metal surface? In that sense it always referred to a straight surface, and it's hard to see how a straight piece of metal could separate water underneath from water above.

Seven of those uses occur in Genesis 1 itself (so are the subject of this discussion). The others (quoting the King James Version):

Psalm 19:1
"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork."
In context, the raqiya' here refers to the skies. So no problem translating it as 'expanse.'

Psalm 150:1
"Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power."
Again, the KJV is probably incorrect in putting 'firmament' rather than 'expanse.' The NIV, for instance, says "praise him in his mighty heavens."

The next five occurrences are in Ezekiel. I won't go through them point by point, but suffice to say that in every single case 'expanse' makes at least as much sense as 'firmament' - and the New International Version, for one, renders it that way.

Finally, Daniel 12:3
"And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."
Again, it makes much more sense to interpret raqiya' here as 'expanse,' since it ends up referring to the sky. A huge metal firmament doesn't have brightness.

In summary, the evidence from the usage of raqiya' in the rest of the Bible supports reading the word as 'expanse' rather than as 'firmament,' unless you blindly accept the KJV as a perfect translation. I would, therefore, be most interested to see Jack the Bodiless's contextual evidence for 'firmament.'

Another point: In Genesis 1:8 God calls the raqiya' shamayim. Genesis 1:26 speaks of "birds of the shamayim." Which is the more logical reading - birds of the firmament (what?) or birds of the expanse (i.e., sky)?

As far as this faith/works point is concerned, James emphasises works as the product of, and evidence for, faith - not as any kind of substitute for faith.

Malachi151

Perhaps the word itself is instructive of its own origin:

FIRM-a-ment

Dlx2

I dunno. I am not familiar enough with Akkadian and Sumerian logograms to say anything further, but a single syllable may be enough to draw an etymological link between two concepts.

Dlx2

It might also be worth considering the Akkadian rakabu and the similar-sounding rakhabu, especially given the presence of the sea deity Rakhab in ancient Hebrew and Canaanite poetry.

spin

Much of Wandering Traveller's post has been inconsequential to the basic OP.

This has been dealt with in an effort to understand v20, in which birds are to fly across the face of the firmament of the heavens [(L PNY RQY( H$MYM]. But to expand on the subject, looking up from a human perspective, birds do fly across the face of the firmament. We perceive the firmament as something across which birds fly across. That's what the Hebrew text describes. When in 1:2 darkness was over the face of the deep and the wind of god was hovering over the face of the waters, we don't have the idea that darkness was in the deep or that the wind of god was hovering in the waters. In 2:26 a mist came out of the earth and water the face of the ground. In 3:8 Adam and his wife hid from the face of god. 6:1 talks of people multiplying over the face of the earth.

When the text talks about the face of the firmament it treats the firmament as something solid, as with everything that can have PNYM (the form PNY indicates "face of"), which can mean not just "face" but "in front of" or "(located) before", as in "stand before god". However, when the Hebrew has a pronoun before PNY, as in (L-PNY, the word is taken as a noun, literally here "face", though usually metaphorical. The firmament has a face, which indicates that the firmament is perceived as physically solid. This fact goes well with the notion of RQY( as something, by its etymology and connections with the verb RQ(, solid.

The purpose of the firmament is to separate the waters above from the rest of creation. Below the firmament the rest of the creation takes place. And when it later rained, as in the time of Noah, the windows of heaven were opened. Windows in the sky were opened to let the waters above come down. The same idea is found again in Ps 78:23 with the doors of heaven. It wouldn't make too much sense unless one had the notion of a solid firmament. God "waters the hills from his chambers" in Ps 104:13, chambers built on the firmament, through whose windows the water pours down.

Both the meaning of the word as derived from its etymology and its usage shows the raqiya to have been perceived as a solid object.

A simple translation may reveal the translator's world view, not that of the writer.


spin

spin

Sorry, but you need more than a single syllable and some guesswork.


spin

Gudjonsson

The meaning of the Hebrew word firmament is quite clear:

-Doug Sharp. The Revolution Against Evolution, p.38

Isn’t this obviously true? I mean even though Sharp does not speak any Hebrew, he surely knows what he is talking about? Apart from claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit, the source of all wisdom, he cited a book written by Henry Morris from 1974 to prove this claim, and I think that settles the question. Sharp thinks so too, since he makes no further efforts in order to show that what he says is true.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

(just could not resist quoting the most stupid book I have ever read - but I know that Sharp himself is a very nice guy - at least about 10 years ago, when we exchanged some e-mails...)

Wandering Traveller

spin:

I don't think so. The original post, relying on the King James Version, claims that all other uses of raqiya' in the Bible refer to a firmament. Every single one makes as much, or more, sense when translated as 'expanse,' notwithstanding the fact that the KJV gives 'firmament.'

Except if you think there's a huge firmament up there, birds don't fly anywhere near it, but much closer to earth. And "birds of the air" (i.e., expanse) still makes a whole lot more sense than "birds of the firmament."

The metal surfaces referred to by raqiya' were never dome-shaped. The Hebrews did not use domed architecture, nor did their neighbours.

All your references here are figurative (the Psalms are poetic, and rife with imagery). You might as well believe that Shakespeare held the world to be a literal stage - or that the Hebrews actually worshipped a rock (God is called 'rock' on several occasions throughout the Bible). Psalm 104 itself says that God "makes the clouds his chariot and rides on the wings of the wind" (verse 3, New International Version) - did the author really believe the wind had wings or that the clouds were a literal chariot for God to ride in?

There's one problem: as far as the derivation of the word is concerned, the metal surfaces hammered out were straight and not dome-shaped. And 'expanse' makes at least as much sense as 'firmament' on every occasion when the word is used in the Bible.

Jack the Bodiless

No, I wasn't "relying on the King James Version": the Hebrew word raqiya never appears in the KJV (which is written in English). The English word "expanse" is irrelevant to this discussion, unless you can demonstrate that the Hebrew word had that meaning: and you cannot (BTW, "shamayim" and "raqiya" are two different words).
They used metal bowls, which are dome-shaped.

The fact that a person with modern knowledge of astronomy could substitute "expanse" (and mean "a big empty space" is irrelevant, as the Hebrews had no such knowledge. We know from their writings that they considered the Firmament to be solid. That's why the stars are little lamps attached to it (which can be knocked off), and why the Book of Enoch describes in detail the system of "gates" required for the Sun and Moon to enter and leave the dome (IIRC, six pairs of gates are specified, to account for the apparent movement of the rising and setting points throughout the year), and why the Book of Baruch has the builders of the Tower of Babel reaching the underside of the Firmament and preparing to drill into it when God intervened.

Jack the Bodiless

By the way:
Why didn't you check the Hebrew? The KJV happens to be correct here: the word is raqiya, i.e. "firmament". Anything else would be a mistranslation (and the NIV has plenty of those).