Jack the Bodiless

Yes, I know it was regarded as a solid dome covering the flat Earth. But here are the various meanings from Strong's Concordance:
"Expanse" is the one favored by fundies, allowing them to imagine that the Bible is compatible with modern astronomy.

But where's the evidence that the word ever meant "expanse"?

All 17 uses in the Bible refer to the Firmament dome. Nowhere is it used to refer to anything else. The word itself (Hebrew raqiya) is derived from riqqua, meaning "beaten out" (referring to the process of making a metal bowl by hammering out a lump of metal).

So, is "expanse" an example of Christian bias in Strongs, or is there some basis for this usage in other texts?

Dlx2

Yeah, that's the one.

The division between the heavens and the earth was accomplished by dividing the waters with a piece of beaten metal. Specifically, a sword. You know, the sword that was used to cleave Tehom in two.

spin

Not kosher. The sword misses the problem in that it is not the cleaving which is at issue but the solidity of the thing which holds the water up. The notion of beating out metal is that the surface area is expanded. The verb RQ( is often used to deal with spreading as in the case of the creative act of spreading out the earth, as in Ps 136:6 or Isa 42:5. (But the stamping motion -- as with the hammer hitting the metal -- is seen in Ezek 6:11, "...stamp your foot...") Num 16:38 talks of beaten plates as a plating for the altar.

A clear understanding of RQY( is Job 37:18, "Can you, like him, spread out the sky, hard as a molten mirror?" (Or see Ezek 1:22.)

The cleaving with a sword is part of the underlying myth which has been sublimated in Gen 1. Marduk divides Tiamat with his sword then places half above and holds it up with something. Tiamat, the tehom of Gen 1:2, is still in the story, but obfuscated along with any physical intervention of the creator god.


spin

Jack the Bodiless

...So where did "expanse" come from? It's bloody annoying when fundies argue that "Firmament" can mean "expanse" which can mean "a big empty space"!

I can see three possibilities here:

1. The relationship between the English words "expanse" and "expansion", hence Strong envisioned an "expanse" as "something that has been expanded".

2. Maybe the Hebrew word got used to describe a desert or something, likening it to the big featureless "vault of the sky", and the word began to alter its meaning.

3. Strong was full of it, and attempting to reconcile the Bible with modern astronomy, without any justification other than his religion.

spin

Expanse is straightforward in its expedience: if you start out with a lump of hot metal and beat it for a while it will cover a lot of area; the longer you beat it the thinner it gets but the more area it covers. It is a spreading through beating. It is not an expanse of emptiness, but one of surface.

The examples I gave earlier from the bible are indicative of the term. There is nothing to support the stuff they've said to you. If it's a spreading then there must be something to spread: those verses often have the earth as what is spread. The other verses are even more indicative.


spin

Jack the Bodiless

Oh, I'm aware that there is nothing to support the stuff they've said to me. It's just annoying that Strong chose, as one of his meanings, a word that they can still wilfully misinterpret in that fashion.

"A big empty space" is one of the possible meanings of the English word "expanse", even if it isn't one of the actual meanings of the Hebrew raqiya.

seven8s

Streets paved with gold, that or we can go back to the stone ages. It seems to me that is what is being suggested. A revelation precedes a beginning, or do we act on animal instinct? If we stand in the middle of the two books I presume we can go either way?

When we recognize that the book allows the option of moving toward Genesis 1, from an old perspective to a brand new beginning, we recognize the past building a better future.

It seems to me that we are their hopes and dreams, their God, just as they were ours, just as we will be the God of the future generation, just as they are ours.

Spread the wealth around.

Beating is simply a work wrought. We can spread shiny stuff, or angst. Some choose angst, some choose shiny stuff. We can go forward to Genesis1, with a promise of shiny stuff, or onward to Revelations with it’s angst.

I look at it this way, they all had their day in the sun, and having had their day I the sun, it’s over. This is our day, our time, our sun. If time serves a purpose that is times purpose, ours, which doesn’t negate theirs, on the contrary, we divide the light from the light (chaos). Perhaps better said, abstract the light from the light, leaving the chaos behind. The chaos being those beliefs, doctrines that encourage/reinforce pain and suffering.

Tall order. I have no doubt that we will get there. ‘Someday’, isn’t that what it is all about?


"A big empty space" is one of the possible meanings of the English word "expanse", even if it isn't one of the actual meanings of the Hebrew raqiya.
1.
A big empty space. Interesting. What would an empty space contain, ‘nothing’. Isn’t it remarkable that just such has been found in space? If I remember correctly, it is about 10 million light years wide. I can think of but one thing that this space is worthy of being filled. All of us.

Something from nothing.

In that moment of the crushing
when grand illusions fall
nature will recover
what others
thought was small.

Peter demanded faith, Paul works....................Marvin said, lets get it on! All it takes is one.

I love Marvin!

Syler Kite

Paul emphasized faith.

James (and Peter to a lesser degree) emphasized works.

Jack the Bodiless

Can anyone who knows Hebrew confirm that "a big empty space" is definitely NOT among the range of possible meanings of the Hebrew raqiya?

I'd really like to be able to say "No, even though expanse can mean that, raqiya absolutely does not", and knock this claim on the head once and for all.

But if I make that claim, and a Hebrew speaker says "Nope, you're wrong, that's a legitimate usage of raqiya"... then I'm screwed.

Even though the context clearly indicates that a solid Firmament is meant, and I can provide multiple references supporting this: I would have been caught making a false claim regarding the possible meanings of raqiya.

And I don't want to risk giving them that satisfaction.

...Though I appreciate that there's an element of uncertainty regarding ancient Biblical Hebrew. But I strongly suspect that no known ancient Hebrew usage of raqiya meant "a big empty space".

Syler Kite

Jack,

Why are you using Strongs? Because it is what you believe most Christians use? Just curious.

If it is for your own understanding, I would use a different source like Brown-Driver-Briggs (BDB) (which can be found for free online) or the Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (HALOT).