thebeave

Actually, some of the above sins can be rid of with medication and/or surgery. For example, gluttony can often be managed with appetitte suppressants or stomach stapling. Sloth, sometimes is due to depression or a neurotransmitter problem, which can be remedied also with a variety of anti-depressants. Wrath is often just an anger management problem, which can be suppressed with medication (or a lobotomy). Lust can be eliminated or controlled with chemical castration or surgery, but without lust, God's children wouldn't care to reproduce, so I'm not sure why its such a bad thing.
So you see, you are wrong. There are alternate ways to treat sins, and Christi is NOT the only solution.

Keep in mind that, according to your worldview, God created us and is responsible for our design, so really it is his fault that we are the way we are. If you design the hardware and software for a computer and it behaves badly, who's fault is that? Is it the computer's fault? No, its just doing what it was made to do. The designer (you) is the true problem, because you made a mistake in the design. And no, you can't fix the computer's problems by dragging it through town while people whip it, and then nailing it to a stick in the town square.

Selsaral

In the case of Christianity, in order to fix the computer you'd drag the toaster through the town while people whip it, then nail it to a stick in the town square.

JohNeo

The best answer I can come up with is that the ancient Hebrews (and many of their contemporaries) were obsessed with animal and human sacrifice. All of the sacrifice that had been done for thousands of years had not changed the nature of "god," so it was time to make another bold claim to justify the authority of god and his minions.

Those who founded Christianity perhaps thought that God in Flesh sacrificing himself would somehow be the noblest sacrifice. I think it's one other example of a theology that really wasn't thought out that well when it was introduced. I'm sure the creators didn't really think we'd be sitting here 2,000 years later debating it. Only two millenia of theologians piling apologetic shit on top of it could be enough to confuse people into overlooking its absurdity.

JohNeo

Mullet Over

A few questions for everyone along these lines. For the sake of discussion, suppose that God exists as Christians put forth, i.e. loving, just, righteous, sinless, all-powerful, etc.

1. What do you think sin is?

2. Why would you suppose sin is a problem to Him?

3. If he is all those things we agreed on, how do you suppose he would go about dealing with sin?

4. Since you've sinned, as I'm sure you agree (or at least those who know you best will agree), how would you suppose to get to Heaven, to God, who is sinless?

Christ Michael

1 Sin is denial of reality. God The Father is the only true reality, a spirit whose attributes are love, mercy, goodness, joy etc.(sin is NOT a spiritual reality, it is an illusion. Illusions are not real )

2. Sin is not a problem to him but to you !! Since committing a sin is actually denying the reality of creation, by choosing to sin it shows that you are actually INSANE because you think that an illusion is real. Insanity can not enter into Heaven !!

3.He sends his Sons to show you the true reality. Note the way Jesus lived and died. He even said of his enemies: "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do".

4.In the time-space creations, as opposed to pure spirit creations, the method of attaining Heaven and God is through EVOLUTION and EXPERIENCE. In this PROGRESSIVE EVOLUTION, it is your MIND which needs to be spiritualised (become Christlike) so that you are able to clearly see what the true nature of reality is. Please note that a highly INTELLECTUAL MIND doesn't necessarily mean that this same mind is spiritualised. Examples are: Ted Bundy, Charles Manson etc. Contrast them with Mother Theresa, Dalai Lama etc and you can clearly see the difference.


Cheers

Avatar

Let's see...in your version of reality, you have a talking snake, a voice coming from a burning bush, an an entire sky filled with choirs of angels. It sounds as though you live in a Disney musical. In my version of reality, the universe moves in accordance to physics, mathematics, and other provable things. And I'M denying reality?

Actually, the Bible makes it clear that sin is a problem for him...that he hates it and cannot bear it. Sounds to me like his "perfection" is awfully fragile...thus by definition not perfect. Also, how does closing my eyes to physical evidence and logic insane? To me it is insane that anyone can believe a book filled with contadictions and hypocrisy couyld possibly be a guide to life and the hereafter.

This has been gone over and over again. This whole thing is completely nonsensical. Why does he have to sacrifice a part of himself to save us from himself? Remember...God supposedly is the one who set up the whole thing in the first place. Instead of going through such an utterly pointless performance, why not simply fix the problem? If he's God, I'm sure he could do that if he really wanted to. Or is he unable to somehow? If he is unable, then how can he be omnipotent?

EXTREMELY poor examples of the intellectual mind. To equate "intellectualism" with the like of serial killers and mass murderers is not only far from accurate, it also exposes your prejeduce for all to see. Neither Bundy nor Manson were "intellectual" by any stretch of the imagination. Not only are you "stscking" your example, you are pointing at sociopathic monsters and claiming they are somehow examples of intelligence. If I were to use such tactics, I would compare Stephen Hawking and Thomas Jefferson to David Koresh and Pat Robertson.

Whenever I hear a christian talk about this (favoring "Christlike" minds over intellectually development) I cannot help but wonder how America became such a world power with people like this actively encouraging people to be stupid. "Throw away your analytical mind! Embrace ignorance and call it spirituality!" It's like saying that by getting a labotomy I'll become holy.

Mullet Over

Christ Michael, what you've said is silly, and has absolutely no biblical basis.


Does anyone else have answers to the questions I posed? Those who think the idea of substitutionary death is so ridiculous?

Christ Michael

What is silly is your assertion that I used the Bible, when I didn't mention it even once !! Since when does the Bible believe in evolution ??


The four point answer I gave to your questions is the true nature of reality wheather you like it or not !! Those point will stand up and defeat any and all challenges !!!!!!!


Cheers

P.S. Christ NEVER died for anybody's sins. That is just silly christian theology.

Arctish

posted by Mullet Over
For the sake of discussion I'll give it a try:

1. Sin would be going against god's will. Since god is onmipotent and omniscient it is impossible to go against god's will unless he allows it (which makes it his will that you go against his will). Therefore sin does not exist.

2. Sin would be a problem because only god has the power to make the impossible happen. If sin occurs it means either god is not omnipotent and omniscient or that god is not god.

3. If god were loving, just, righteous, all-powerful, etc. and somehow the impossible happened against his will, he would figure out why it happened and either make sure it never happened again, or he would tolerate it happening, or he would admit he was not god . The loving and just part of his nature would preclude inflicting any torment, eternal or otherwise, on anyone, only-begotten son or otherwise.

4. Hmmm.... This is a puzzler. Since sin is god's will (if he really is god) every sinner does the will of god. Since every sinner is doing god's will, and god is loving and just, every sinner should go to heaven. For god to punish sinners for doing his will would be unjust, unrighteous, wicked, and cruel.
However, god is all-powerful. He is not constrained by his own nature (if he is then he isn't god, who is omnipotent and can do whatever he pleases). Therefore, god could send every one to eternal torment and suffering regardless of whether they did his will or not.
I don't know :huh:
Is there such a thing as heaven?

lulay

Hop by now you've seen through the game, then you dont even need to play theirs. all this 'heaven' and 'hell' nonesense is a cntrolling strategy to keep you un-balanced and clinging to their authority.
did you know that SF Native Americans told the missionaries where to get off, because they didn't believe in sin?.....hehe