Freethought & Rationalism Archive

CartesianFart · 07-11-2008, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

If you don't find the word "coincidence" it might be because all of the participants know that is the default position.

I said it is neglected for whatever devious motives. The so-called opinions from a secularist who are not afraid to make their findings and comprehension of it, the ever awe-inspiring. I lol'd at these monkeys.

Quote:

But what is this "legitimacy" of which you speak?

I am saying the social phenomenon that historically occurred during the times when the early Judaic cult was becoming a force to reckon with in the Romanized world; especially on regarding the communities of the gentiles. I am not denying that it happen, but I do want people to safeguard themselves to not think that there is some kind of a group that happpen to make some kind of a sophisticated manipulation of taking out elements of old religious icons in order to supplant it into a new kind of icon (Jesus that is) for whatever purposes.

Toto · 07-11-2008, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CartesianFart

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

If you don't find the word "coincidence" it might be because all of the participants know that is the default position.

I said it is neglected for whatever devious motives. The so-called opinions from a secularist who are not afraid to make their findings and comprehension of it, the ever awe-inspiring. I lol'd at these monkeys.

You are new here, but it is generally considered bad form to ascribe "devious" motives to people or call them "monkeys."

Quote:

But what is this "legitimacy" of which you speak?

I am saying the social phenomenon that historically occurred during the times when the early Judaic cult was becoming a force to reckon with in the Romanized world; especially on regarding the communities of the gentiles.

There are a number of assumptions here that I don't think you can actually back up.

CartesianFart · 07-11-2008, 01:16 PM

by the way... i was not finished editing my post that you had rapidly response from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

You are new here, but it is generally considered bad form to ascribe "devious" motives to people or call them "monkeys."

So you do deny that the positions that people represent are not motivated in some way that can be considered devious?

Quote:

There are a number of assumptions here that I don't think you can actually back up.

Really?

Toto · 07-11-2008, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CartesianFart

by the way... i was not finished editing my post that you had rapidly response from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

You are new here, but it is generally considered bad form to ascribe "devious" motives to people or call them "monkeys."

So you do deny that the positions that people represent are not motivated in some way that can be considered devious?

Do you claim to be a mind readers? I think we have to act on the assumption that people's motives here are not necessarily devious; and even if they are, you must attack the argument, and not the motive. A person with a devious motive may still come up with a good argument.

Quote:

There are a number of assumptions here that I don't think you can actually back up.

Really?

Yes, really.

When I look at your edited post, I have to ask, respectfully, with no implications that there is anything wrong with it, if English is your first language?

I can't figure out what you are trying to say here:

Quote:

I am not denying that it happen, but I do want people to safeguard themselves to not think that there is some kind of a group that happpen to make some kind of a sophisticated manipulation of taking out elements of old religious icons in order to supplant it into a new kind of icon (Jesus that is) for whatever purposes.

CartesianFart · 07-11-2008, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Do you claim to be a mind readers?

Is this a typo? How can I be a "mind readers"? Unless you have some kind of a theory that there are people out there that have many minds that can read other minds? Is English your native tongue? Or is it just bad grammar?

Quote:

I think we have to act on the assumption that people's motives here are not necessarily devious; and even if they are, you must attack the argument, and not the motive. A person with a devious motive may still come up with a good argument.

When someone assert something about sometihing, it is usually because there is a motive for the reason to assert it.

Quote:

Yes, really.

When I look at your edited post, I have to ask, respectfully, with no implications that there is anything wrong with it, if English is your first language?

I think I was concise. It is you who obviously failed, young grasshopper. Joke*

Quote:

I can't figure out what you are trying to say here:

Quote:

I am not denying that it happen, but I do want people to safeguard themselves to not think that there is some kind of a group that happpen to make some kind of a sophisticated manipulation of taking out elements of old religious icons in order to supplant it into a new kind of icon (Jesus that is) for whatever purposes.

[/QUOTE]
Read it again. Or it could be out of your learning capacity.

CartesianFart · 07-11-2008, 01:57 PM

Since you are not going to rapidly response, toto. I suggest you write "mind reader" next time.>

<

Toto · 07-11-2008, 02:24 PM

Mind readers was a typo for mind reader. But you get points for calling me young

Lets go back to your statement:

Quote:

I am saying the social phenomenon that historically occurred during the times when the early Judaic cult was becoming a force to reckon with in the Romanized world;

I assume that "Judaic cult" refers to Christianity. It did not become a force to be reckoned with until the third century. Are you confining yourself to this time period?

Quote:

especially on regarding the communities of the gentiles.

But the Christian story says that gentile became involved in Christianity, and were perhaps dominant, from the end of the first century . . .

Quote:

I am not denying that it happen,

Pardon, but what are you not denying happened?

Quote:

but I do want people to safeguard themselves to not think that there is some kind of a group that happpen to make some kind of a sophisticated manipulation of taking out elements of old religious icons in order to supplant it into a new kind of icon (Jesus that is) for whatever purposes.

You say you want people to safeguard themselve NOT to think that someone earlier group manipulated the old religion to add Jesus to it? What would this safegard them from?

CartesianFart · 07-11-2008, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Mind readers was a typo for mind reader. But you get points for calling me young

Lets go back to your statement:

Quote:

I am saying the social phenomenon that historically occurred during the times when the early Judaic cult was becoming a force to reckon with in the Romanized world;

I assume that "Judaic cult" refers to Christianity. It did not become a force to be reckoned with until the third century. Are you confining yourself to this time period?

But the Christian story says that gentile became involved in Christianity, and were perhaps dominant, from the end of the first century . . .

Pardon, but what are you not denying happened?

Quote:

but I do want people to safeguard themselves to not think that there is some kind of a group that happpen to make some kind of a sophisticated manipulation of taking out elements of old religious icons in order to supplant it into a new kind of icon (Jesus that is) for whatever purposes.

You say you want people to safeguard themselve NOT to think that someone earlier group manipulated the old religion to add Jesus to it? What would this safegard them from?

Now we are having a dialogue! Unfortunately I have to go to work. I am a sad little workerbee and that's that!

I will response tomorrow morning with important details of my conclusions.

Alesiah · 07-11-2008, 03:56 PM

Jeffery,

So you don't want to physically go to sites I list???
You want me to list them for you so you don't have to take the time to look??

Well, lets start with the ones I already listed:
Osiris, Isis and Horus symbole of the winged sun...plus Book of the Dead, chapter 66 that expresses his mother was Neith the virgin mother..

Mithras, the Unconquered Sun of Persia, was born during the solstice, as was Ameratsu, the Japanese Goddess of the Sun.
Rhea gave birth to Saturn (the Father of Time),
Hera conceives Hephaestus, and Qetzalcoatl, Lucina ("Little Light") plus celebrates birth during the Winter Solstice...
Lucia, saint or Goddess of Light, is honored from Italy to Sweden, crowned with candles to carry us through the darkness.
Sarasvati, Queen of Heaven in India, is honored during Yule-tide.

Jeffrey Gibson · 07-11-2008, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alesiah

Jeffery,

So you don't want to physically go to sites I list???
You want me to list them for you so you don't have to take the time to look??

Was this unclear? Generally when someone ask you to cite texts/primary sources that document/back up the claims you make, that's what they mean. And with the exception of Steve Avery, that's what others addressed with this request understand the request to mean. And the source you sent me to cites no ancient texts at all! So why on earth did you even consider it a site that anyone should be sent to, even if they were willing to go on a text hunt?

Quote:

Well, lets start with the ones I already listed:
Osiris, Isis and Horus symbole of the winged sun...plus Book of the Dead, chapter 66 that expresses his mother was Neith the virgin mother..

Mithras, the Unconquered Sun of Persia, was born during the solstice, as was Ameratsu, the Japanese Goddess of the Sun.

Documentation, please!

Quote:

Rhea gave birth to Saturn (the Father of Time),

Umm, what?? there is to my knowledge, no ancient text which attests to this. Cronos' [Saturn's] mother is Gaia, not Rhea. And Kronos [Saturn] and Rhea were brother and sister and husband and wife, not mother and son.. Cf. eg. Hyginus, Preface

Quote:

"From Saturnus [Kronos] and Ops [Rhea] [were born]: Vesta [Hestia], Ceres [Demeter], Juno [Hera], Juppiter [Zeus], Pluto [Hades], Neptunus [Poseidon]." Compare Hyginus, Fabulae 13

Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 5.68.1 & 70.1

Quote:

"To Kronos and Rhea, we are told, were born Hestia, Demeter, and Hera, and Zeus, Poseidon, and Haides ... Kronos time and again did away with the children whom he begot; but Rhea, grieved as she was, and yet lacking the power to change her husband’s purpose, when she had given birth to Zeus, concealed him in Ide, as it is called, and, without the knowledge of Kronos, entrusted the rearing of him to the Kouretes of Mt Ide."

Nor, again to my knowledge, is there any ancient text that speaks of Kronos/Saturn being born in December, let alone conceived in the Spring. (if you know of any, I'd be glad to see them).

So on this point at least your source is, to put it mildly, crap.

Quote:

Hera conceives Hephaestus plus celebrates birth during the Winter Solstice...

She does? Here are our primary sources for the birth of Hephastus:

Quote:

Hesiod, Theogony 924 ff (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or 7th B.C.) :
"[Theogony text version 1 :] Zeus himself gave birth from his own head to bright-eyed Tritogeneia [Athene] . . . But Hera without union with Zeus--for she was very angry and quarrelled with her mate - bare famous Hephaistos, who is skilled in crafts more than all the sons of Heaven."

Hesiod, Theogony 929a ff :
"But Hera was very angry and quarrelled with her mate. And because of this strife she bare without union with Zeus who holds the aegis a glorious son, Hephaistos, who excelled all the sons of Heaven in crafts. But Zeus lay with the fair-cheeked daughter of Okeanos and Tethys apart from Hera [and from this union Athene was born]."

Homer, Odyssey 8. 267 ff
"[Hephaistos :] `I am a cripple from my birth.'"

Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 1. 19
"Hera bore Hephaistos without benefit of sexual intercourse, although Homer says that Zeus was his father."

Pausanias, Description of Greece 8. 53. 5
"Kinaithon [Greek poet C8th B.C.] too in his poem represents Rhadamanthys as the son of Hephaistos, Hephaistos as a son of Talos, and Talos as a son of Kres. The legends of Greece generally have different forms, and this is particularly true of genealogy."
[N.B. Talos is the Kretan sun-god, and Kres is the island of Krete.]

Pseudo-Hyginus, Preface:
"[Born] from Juno [Hera] without father, Volcanus [Hephaistos]."

Cicero, De Natura Deorum 3. 22
"[Hephaistos] is the son of Jupiter [Zeus] and of Juno [Hera]."

I see nothing there about the date of Hephaistos' birth.

Do you know of anything that actually attests to what your source claims? -- any text that documents that these gods and goddesses you or your source claims to have been conceived at the equinox and born at the solstice were actually thought by anyone from, say, the 4th century BCE through the 2nd century CE, to have been conceived and born when you/your source says they were? If not, how good is your claim? Why should anyone accept it?

And you are aware, are you not, that the early church did not say that Jesus was born during December, and that the date of the original/earliest celebrations of Jesus' birth was not Dec. 25th?

Jeffrey

07-11-2008, 01:57 PM	#166
CartesianFart Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Ravenna, Ohio Posts: 45	Since you are not going to rapidly response, toto. I suggest you write "mind reader" next time.><

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07-11-2008, 03:56 PM	#169
Alesiah Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Missouri,USA Posts: 12	Jeffery, So you don't want to physically go to sites I list??? You want me to list them for you so you don't have to take the time to look?? Well, lets start with the ones I already listed: Osiris, Isis and Horus symbole of the winged sun...plus Book of the Dead, chapter 66 that expresses his mother was Neith the virgin mother.. Mithras, the Unconquered Sun of Persia, was born during the solstice, as was Ameratsu, the Japanese Goddess of the Sun. Rhea gave birth to Saturn (the Father of Time), Hera conceives Hephaestus, and Qetzalcoatl, Lucina ("Little Light") plus celebrates birth during the Winter Solstice... Lucia, saint or Goddess of Light, is honored from Italy to Sweden, crowned with candles to carry us through the darkness. Sarasvati, Queen of Heaven in India, is honored during Yule-tide.

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