Littlefoot

I think its been long enough to try this again and see if the actual post itself can get a disscussion..


Those attempting to show that the faith of Christianity is well grounded in fact often point to the historicity of the resurrection event. Supposedly the bible is valid evidence because


1) It is an eyewitness account
2) Said eyewitness accounts were preserved
3) Said eyewitnesses were reliable
4) The bible backs itself through archeology



Now, if Christians are being honest with their methodology any work of history that meets these criteria would be deemed historical. After all, the amount of evidence required is generally proportional to the level to which the potentially true event falls outside of our experiences and against our expectations. The idea that there was a Particular blacksmith named Tiberius in Rome wouldn’t require much evidence. As Rome had a large number of blacksmiths and Tiberius was a common name all that would probably be required would be a receipt, work order, or a sign etc. The idea that he personally made and fitted 50,000 horse shoes a day is a lot further outside of our expectations and would require much further evidence to be accepted as fact.
Similarly, people rising up after being genuinely dead for three days falls FAR outside of our observations and expectations. There have been roughly 12 billion people on the planet and to all appearances dead people stay dead. It is perhaps the most universal and well-observed fact of our existence. Any evidence that said universal constant had been altered or written an exception would require an extra ordinary amount of evidence. Certain sectors of Christianity think their level of evidence meets this requirement but do they evaluate other extraordinary claims in the same and consistent manner?

So here we go… Do any Christians arguing for the historicity of the resurrection event believe in magic? You know, witch craft, Satanism, people flying through the air, causing men’s members to disappear, sex with demons, shape shifting, the ability to control the weather.. the whole nine yards? 1

If not I have to ask why, the historical evidence of such events appears to meet if not exceed the criteria used for the bible.


It is an eyewitness account

Here is an excerpt from a book entitled THE MALLEUS MALEFICARUM, hammer of witches. The book was written as a handbook for hunting witches, the authors being authorized to conduct such hunts under the Pope Innocent the XIII under a papal bull. It describes at great length the powers, abilities, limitations of witches, and the means to root out and destroy them.


WE must not omit to mention the injuries done to children by witch midwives, first by killing them, and secondly by blasphemously offering them to devils. In the diocese of Strasbourg and in the town of Zabern there is an honest woman very devoted to the Blessed Virgin MARY, who tells the following experience of hers to all the guests that come to the tavern which she keeps, known by the sign of the Black Eagle.


Littlefoot: Now this is at least as much information, if not more, than we have of the authors of the bible. Finding this woman would have been a piece of cake. All you need to do is find the female owner of the black eagle inn in Zabern. If such a woman or inn did not exist then the local priests should have reported back on it.


And to make the matter clear we will quote a case which occurred at Spires and came to the knowledge of many. A certain honest man was bargaining with a woman, and would not come to terms with her about the price of some article; so she angrily called after him, "You will soon wish you had agreed." For witches generally use this manner of speaking, or something like it, when they wish to bewitch a person by looking at him. Then he, not unreasonably being angry with her, looked over his shoulder to see with what intention she had uttered those words; and behold! he was suddenly bewitched so that his mouth was stretched sideways as far as his ears in a horrible deformity, and he could not draw it back, but remained so deformed for a long time.

www.malleusmaleficarum.or...3_13a.html


Littlefoot: now this is certainly more information than we have on the 500 who supposedly saw Jesus, without a single name, town, time, or even country given.

1 Corinthians 15:6
After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.



2) Said eyewitness accounts were preserved


An original copy of the 1496 edition is in the Lea Library at Penn, and is described by John Shea: " looks harmless enough from the outside. Barely five inches wide and eight inches tall, its spine has grown bare... Although its light-brown leather covers are mottled and worn, they are supported by two robust blocks of wood that suggest hard, frequent use." (The Pennsylvania Gazette, May-June 2003, p. 30)

Found at www.dailyreprobate.com/wo...bles_2.htm


Such evidence far exceeds that for the chain of knowledge of biblical events. There is no risk of false authorship, false accreditation, translation, editing or the inclusion of unoriginal materials. You have an original copy you can pick up, hold in your hand, and compare against any modern copy to check for errors at your leisure. Whatever the preservation of biblical texts implies for the truth of the resurrection event it applies more so here.


3) The eyewitness accounts were reliable.

These authors had the official sanction of the Roman Catholic Church, one of the most sophisticated organizations on the planet at the time. A papal bull signed by innocent VIII gave the authors the right and obligation to root out heresy and witchcraft using the local church and state officials as well as any an all methods, the “particular methods� (torture) not excluded. Reasonable, thinking people would not have handed over that kind of power to people who were not reliable and trustworthy enough to root out fanciful rumor from extraordinary fact. The authors themselves would not have risked life and limb gallivanting about the countryside without reliable evidence that they were doing the right thing. They were well-educated respected men and professors of theology. If any action they were undertaking was against the biblical precepts or reason they would have been aware of it.


www.malleusmaleficarum.org/mm00e.html

They were not spotting witches behind every rock and tree and executing on a whim. They state that

THE second method of delivering judgement is to be employed when he or she who is accused, after a diligent discussion of the merits of the case in consultation with learned lawyers, is found to be no more than defamed as a heretic in some village, town, or province

www.malleusmaleficarum.or...3_21a.html

These were people who knew the serious implications and burdens of their job and conducted themselves as such.


4) Archeological evidence

In the diocese of Strasburg and in the town of Zabern

For in the diocese of Constance, twenty-eight German miles from the town of Ratisbon in the direction of Salzburg

Not long ago in the town of Ratisbon


There lived in a town of Wiesenthal
Quite lately a witch was detained in the Castle of Königsheim near the town of Schlettstadt in the Diocese of Strasburg

.. as well as the aforementioned black eagle inn.

Littlefoot: Historians have cooperated these towns all existed at the time where they were indicated, showing that these people were traveling about in the course of their duties and acquiring the local knowledge that can only come from first hand experience.



In short… The reasoning and methods used by those wishing to have the resurrection event considered historical would also render the witchcraft phenomenon of the European as real events that actually happened. If the methods are an acceptable and valid
way to determine history then we must also accept the reality of European witches possessing supernatural powers or risk falling victim to special pleading.

If you accept witches and witchcraft as real, then what is there to prevent Jesus having faked his death or returned after the event through sorcery, illusion, or trickery? The exclusiveness , uniqueness and very reason for believing that Jesus is god on the basis of his ability to resurrect himself goes right out the window if other people posses the supernatural ability to either confuse the eye witnesses or perform the event for real.



I can only hear god if I accept. I can only accept if I can understand. I can only understand if I hear god. There appears to be a hole in the bucket dear Johnny...

Roland

Mary's alleged appearance at places like Lourdes and Fatima would fit many of these criteria as well.

Yet, how many evangelicals are going to believe this was a genuine vision from God? I suspect that, at best, most would dismiss it as Satanic in origin, to fool the unwary into thinking Catholicism is the true Christian religion. That would probably be the most likely response, preferable to saying the appearances were the result of mass hysteria, stupidity or deception because that would call into question the validity of their own beliefs vis a vis miracles.

Littlefoot

Littlefoot: Probobly, and at the same time they overlook the fact that a being such as satan running around with the abilities ascribed to him could just have easily been part of the plot to switch the sabath from saterday to sunday, have people eat unclean foods and distort/water down the OT law that the REAL god gave to the isrealites for all time.

doc58

Very interesting story and documentation.
I would like to see a collection of these types of stories that apply typical Christian apologetics to other areas to find out what one would have to believe to be consistent.

Kosh

Of course, none of these points are factual in the case of the NT...

Vinnie

Ditto that. The first three assume eyewitness testimony which, well, isn't even on ths scholarly map anymore. The fourth is just a non-sequitur (Jerusalem existed in the first century, therefore Jesus rose from the dead?)


Vinnie

Littlefoot

Hey, i'm just responding to the arguments as they're being given to me by christians, specifically here from Lee strobels the case for christ and often paraphrased by others. I didn't say that they made any sense.

Chili

The whole point of the Inquistition was to eradicate the historic literalism by the typical 'Jesus worshippers' who were the witches and are identified in Rev. 13 by the second beast as compared with the first beast in Rev. 13.

Both were real. The resurrection of Jesus was the resurrection of his ego identity and the inability of witches to resurrect their ego identity was because they had failed to die to their ego identity and therefore they had become the final imposters the pharisees warned Pilate about in Mat.27:64.

That the "final imposter was [30-60 times] worse than the first is proven by their own willingness to die at the hand of the Inquisitor who tried to use a painfull kind of death to help them change their mind and see the nature of their own error.

Littlefoot

Chili your stuff is too far out in the statosphere to be proved, disproved, or related to reality. Playing 6 degrees of seperation with philosophical ideas can and willl lead you to anything.

Chili

Well, lets go to Romans 7:8- on that. "I should never have known what evil desire was unless the law had said: 'you shall not covet.' Sin seized that opportunity; it used the commandment to roused in me every kind of evil desire. Without law sin is death, and at first I lived without the law. Then the commandment came; with it sin came to life, and I died."

And to Hebrews 9:16. "When there is a testament it is necessary that the death of the testator be confirmed. For a testament comes into force only if the case of death; it has no force while the testator is alive."

So what do you think the "saved sinner paradox" is all about wherein both the awareness of sin and immortality have come to life?

Are afraid that pretty soon the Inquisition was the best thing that ever happened in the Church's history?