Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 07-01-2008, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Well, it is all about money, isn't it.

While perhaps not totally, but it has always been a major factor. There was that rampant greed that so infected the Church of Rome, leading to generations of wars, conquests, and plundering in the name of Christ.
While here and today in "The Bible Belt", it appears, the greater the poverty, the more numerous the churches.
When poor families cannot earn enough to live on they tend to get real "spiritual", open up yet another "church" and get out that 'ol collection plate.
Some times it becomes down-right silly (or it would be if it weren't so pathetic) as in my little four-stoplight community where over fifty little church's vie for a piece of the pie.

Sheshbazzar · 07-01-2008, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckE99

But it's ALL private interpretation, from the unknown person who compiled oral tradition into the original source document (some call "Q", but let's not get into that, let's just assume there was some sort of transition from oral to written), to a man we call "Matthew" interpretting what he read in that source document, and then writing down his own versions in GMatthew, in Greek, to the myriad translators who, well, translated the Greek into whatever language they needed, to you when you select particular passages to quote here to support your positions.

It's filtering and bias all the way down. Nothing in the Bible is "valid" according to your definition.

Lets see if I can understand your point more clearly. It's all private interpretations coming from each prophet?. Therein lies no single interpretation? This would then seem to apply to the next verses (1Pet.1:21 and 2:1) where it says "For the prophecy came not at any time by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." And then this verse "But.. there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who secretly shall bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord that brought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

This admonition is to be alert to false teaching as many prophets had many interpretations in the older days and had been exposed in their false sayings.

Wasn't this the reason for prophecy being condemned(caused to cease, silenced) in the OT? For no man could tell the future,(Ye have seen nothing!") and were deemed as "dreamers of dreams"? Liars? I'm getting a little ahead of myself here, but wouldn't Peter be judged as a false prophet in his vision[dream] from a roof top?

Many analysis's of the meaning of 2 Peter 1:21-22 are readily available online as the correct interpretation of these passages has been extensively discussed.
Personally, I am persuaded that its sense is most accurately rendered as

Quote:

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private origination,
For the prophecy in old time came not by the will of man: but Holy men of God spoke [as they were] moved (inspired) by the Holy Spirit.

The idea that individuals were or are are barred from personally and individually interpreting Scripture is mistaken. But that is the "interpretation" that the old "Orthodox" Church's succeeded in foisting off upon the gullible for a long time; "Don't think! WE will tell you what to think. Our authority is absolute, Do not presume to question the accuracy of our interpretations, Do as we say or else!

ohmi · 07-01-2008, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohmi

No private interpretation of scripture is valid

What other kind of interpretation is there? Public interpretation? What's that?

The scripture explains itself, it needs no interpretation ... but Jesus has also explained that all his followers [Hebrew saints , of the House of Israel ,and also of the Jews] will know all truth in this life [John 16:13]

... and all men will know all truth long before they are judged [Joel 2:28] , but clearly not in this life [many obviously died sinners , as scripture explains, but Jesus has said that the broad way of the many also leads to him - Rev 7:9-10]

This rather underlines the problem, men in the religion of sinners revere sinner priests who then teach things which the scriptures do not agree with... one cannot really even call these false doctrines interpretations, they are simply wrong ... blind leading billions of blind then ...

most atheists are intelligent enough to see the differenece between religion and scripture, but few bother to check ... end up rightly disbelieving the false gods of the many divided religions, but ignoring the God of scripture , never getting back to the source ...

ohmi · 07-01-2008, 03:37 PM

The scripture underlines that all who actually follow Jesus become saints, cease from all unlovingness to anyone ... these few , who become saints in this life, are the only ones who have all truth now to be able to write scripture and understand it fully ...

But the saints are NOT forming any religious church congregation now , the seven churches of God listed by Jesus were all destroyed by secular powers , never to reconvene , the saints who survived were scattered and simply went about their task of finding the lost House of Israel in every country of the world as Jesus directed them to do.

Thus it is foolish indeed to follow religions started by sinners [not least the pagan religion renamed 'christianity' and used as a political tool by the Roman emperors who killed the Hebrew saints! ]

Christianity of sinners has never yet been reproved to the scripture simply because sinners cannot accept giving up sin as Jesus and God require eventually of all.

Sinners called 'founders' created divided sinner christianity, the scripture easily defeats every single sect, denomination, creed , of it...

The many were warned that it is not for such interpretation by sinners , but are not careful enough in what they say they believe... just as scripture predicts must be so at this time [so snners will unite under a false christ image too, as prophesied , a united world religion, but still false...]

Doug Shaver · 07-02-2008, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

From the story, I would have to conclude the true identity of "Christian" would be as Jesus said, those who obey his command to follow him.

He said that? He said his followers, and only his followers, were to be known as Christians?

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Jesus was a Jew who did not depart from his way, truth and life in Judaism

His Jewishness was never disputed, but his adherence to Judaism was questioned by some of his contemporaries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Unless you want to think that Jesus was teaching a non Jewish doctrine.

The gospels do not make it least bit clear what sort of doctrine he was teaching.

Doug Shaver · 07-02-2008, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohmi

The scripture . . . needs no interpretation

Nonsense. All texts have to be interpreted.

Roger Pearse · 07-02-2008, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohmi

The scripture . . . needs no interpretation

Nonsense. All texts have to be interpreted.

Who do I get to interpret your post?

ohmi · 07-02-2008, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

The world I live in contains dishonest politicians and corrupt clergmen.

So does mine, and nothing I have said implies that I think otherwise.

You forgot the farcical megalomaniac international bankers who , in the name of 'progress', orchestrate the destruction of the very earth that they are hell-bent on possessing and controlling by means of simply creating money that never existed before.

ohmi · 07-02-2008, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Unless you want to think that Jesus was teaching a non Jewish doctrine.

The gospels do not make it least bit clear what sort of doctrine he was teaching.

The teaching given by Jesus of the new covenant of grace to the Jews AND the idol-worshiping House of Israel is given in Heb 8:8-12 [and Jer 31:31-34]

ohmi · 07-02-2008, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Jesus was a Jew who did not depart from his way, truth and life in Judaism

Jesus is indeed a Jew , of the tribe of Judah, and indeed supported the OT scriptures, but he heavily criticised Judaism as having moved away from the Law of Love , as does the OT itself .

The new covenant with Israel's two Houses is found in the OT in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and is clearly stated to be with the Jews [House of Judah] and the [lost, paganised ] House of Israel. [thus showing that modern 'christianity' has a provably false interpretation of the new covenant and thus a false 'gospel']

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07-01-2008, 03:37 PM	#64
ohmi Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Roaming a wilderness that some think is real ... Posts: 1,125	The scripture underlines that all who actually follow Jesus become saints, cease from all unlovingness to anyone ... these few , who become saints in this life, are the only ones who have all truth now to be able to write scripture and understand it fully ... But the saints are NOT forming any religious church congregation now , the seven churches of God listed by Jesus were all destroyed by secular powers , never to reconvene , the saints who survived were scattered and simply went about their task of finding the lost House of Israel in every country of the world as Jesus directed them to do. Thus it is foolish indeed to follow religions started by sinners [not least the pagan religion renamed 'christianity' and used as a political tool by the Roman emperors who killed the Hebrew saints! ] Christianity of sinners has never yet been reproved to the scripture simply because sinners cannot accept giving up sin as Jesus and God require eventually of all. Sinners called 'founders' created divided sinner christianity, the scripture easily defeats every single sect, denomination, creed , of it... The many were warned that it is not for such interpretation by sinners , but are not careful enough in what they say they believe... just as scripture predicts must be so at this time [so snners will unite under a false christ image too, as prophesied , a united world religion, but still false...]

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