Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Oolon Colluphid · 12-15-2005, 02:18 AM

As some of you may be aware, I've been running a thread in E/C with a digest of recent scientific papers of relevance. I just spotted this in Nature, and it's of more interest to you nice people here than in E/C...

Siëlle Gramser, Nature News, 438 p.895 (15 December 2005)

Quote:

Fake pottery buries theory of early start for Christianity

Dutch artefacts are not what they seem.

Artefacts recently unearthed in the Netherlands seemed to show that Christianity was openly practised there much earlier than previously thought. But now they have been shown to be fakes.

The archaeologists who dug up the pieces admitted their error last week in the 2005 yearbook of the historical association Numaga. The artefacts, including four pieces of pottery and glass, and a lead platter, were found at different sites in Nijmegen, the oldest city in the Netherlands, between 1995 and 1999. They were briefly displayed five years ago at Nijmegen's Valkhof Museum.

Most historians think that Christianity was first practised openly after AD 400. But the team of archaeologists, led by Harry van Enckevort, at first dated the items at about AD 200. Other archaeologists expressed doubts about the objects' authenticity at the time of the finds, but it was not until last year that van Enckevort decided to have the finds scientifically analysed.

The tests showed that the inscriptions on the glass and pottery shards were added in the 1990s, although the shards themselves were from around AD 200. The lead plate was a mere 20 years old.

Having got this far in making this post, I see that the references are to an item in the 3 March 2005 Nature, so this may be old news -- if so, sorry! Give me a shout if you'd like the March article...

Toto · 12-15-2005, 02:10 PM

AD 200 would have been a stretch - it was before Constantine, when the Christian Church was a small organization around the Mediterranean. But it wouldn't have forced any drastic changes in our idea of early Christian history.

Ben C Smith · 12-15-2005, 02:25 PM

I am increasingly amazed at how common the forgery of ancient texts and artifacts is. It is starting to feel like the historical version of spam mail and phishing scams.

Ben.

Vorkosigan · 12-15-2005, 05:36 PM

Yup. For a while I tried to collect Sung Dynasty porcelain. I studied porcelain and translated works on porcelain from Chinese to English, etc. I concluded that for every piece I was offered or saw, there were only two options -- it was fake (80-90%) or else it had been stolen from a tomb (even worse). I also concluded that the experts themselves had been strongly influenced by the presence of fakes -- not that their integrity had been compromised, but numerous members of their datasets were in fact fakes -- just as saw in the Golan stuff -- and so the experts themselves could not tell real from false with any surety -- only physical testing could do that.

That's a very good analogy, BTW.

Vorkosigan

Roger Pearse · 12-16-2005, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

I am increasingly amazed at how common the forgery of ancient texts and artifacts is. It is starting to feel like the historical version of spam mail and phishing scams.

Forgery of ancient artefacts, and adding references to famous events to genuine artefacts, has been a large-scale industry ever since the renaissance. See Anthony Grafton, Forgers and Critics: Creativity and Duplicity in Western Scholarship (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1990) for various examples.

The reason is money. As soon as there is interest in antiquity, there is money to be made from selling antiques. A link to someone famous increases the price.

Of course there is always the spoof. There was said to be a local museum that once displayed a coin struck by Caesar which included the date as "55 BC". There was also a vase with the inscription "Iti sapis potitis andatino ne" on it.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Secular Pinoy · 12-16-2005, 04:18 AM

I am reminded of an essay by SJ Gould, "The Lying Stones of Marrakech," where he casually observes the proliferation of fake fossils for sale in some parts of Morocco. From "antique" shops to street hustlers and children, there is a sort of cottage industry in fakery. Their most common clients are tourists.

mata leao · 12-16-2005, 04:38 PM

forrest for the trees..... the Dutch became strong Christian evangelists and helped transform the world with Christian evangelism....Dutch evangelists and missionaries transformed the world......your pottery and your stones "cry out" in witness of the reality of Jesus CHrist. The proof of a pudding is in the eating of it!

Sheshbazzar · 12-16-2005, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mata leao

....your pottery and your stones "cry out" in witness of the reality of Jesus CHrist.

Yep, and in this case they are crying out FRAUD! FRAUD!

Boro Nut · 12-17-2005, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

"Iti sapis potitis andatino ne"

I like it. Is there a link anywhere to this story?

Boro Nut

Roger Pearse · 12-17-2005, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boro Nut

I like it. Is there a link anywhere to this story?

I regret that I no longer recall the book in which I read this.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

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12-15-2005, 02:10 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	AD 200 would have been a stretch - it was before Constantine, when the Christian Church was a small organization around the Mediterranean. But it wouldn't have forced any drastic changes in our idea of early Christian history.

12-15-2005, 02:25 PM	#3
Ben C Smith Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Midwest Posts: 4,787	I am increasingly amazed at how common the forgery of ancient texts and artifacts is. It is starting to feel like the historical version of spam mail and phishing scams. Ben.

12-15-2005, 05:36 PM	#4
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Yup. For a while I tried to collect Sung Dynasty porcelain. I studied porcelain and translated works on porcelain from Chinese to English, etc. I concluded that for every piece I was offered or saw, there were only two options -- it was fake (80-90%) or else it had been stolen from a tomb (even worse). I also concluded that the experts themselves had been strongly influenced by the presence of fakes -- not that their integrity had been compromised, but numerous members of their datasets were in fact fakes -- just as saw in the Golan stuff -- and so the experts themselves could not tell real from false with any surety -- only physical testing could do that. That's a very good analogy, BTW. Vorkosigan

12-16-2005, 04:18 AM	#6
Secular Pinoy Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Quezon City, Philippines Posts: 1,994	I am reminded of an essay by SJ Gould, "The Lying Stones of Marrakech," where he casually observes the proliferation of fake fossils for sale in some parts of Morocco. From "antique" shops to street hustlers and children, there is a sort of cottage industry in fakery. Their most common clients are tourists.

12-16-2005, 04:38 PM	#7
mata leao Banned Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: tampa,florida Posts: 342	forrest for the trees..... the Dutch became strong Christian evangelists and helped transform the world with Christian evangelism....Dutch evangelists and missionaries transformed the world......your pottery and your stones "cry out" in witness of the reality of Jesus CHrist. The proof of a pudding is in the eating of it!

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