SwoleMan

I don't think there's anything wrong with his intelligence, nor do I think he hasn't thought about Christianity a lot. With that said, of course I know the opinion on this matter (being born guilty or innocent) varies among Christians, just like there are theists who accept evolution and theists who don't.

eh

I'm sure there is an article on this site about the atonement. Often, theists claim that God required a sacrifice because he had to. That is to say, by his very nature God is infinitely vengeful and cannot forgive sins without atonement. Since God is by nature vengful and unjust, he had no choice but to have Jesus smacked around 2000 years ago.

Comically, some theists will try to claim God's nature requires him to hand out justice. But such a notion doesn't even remotely ressemble the modern concept of justice. What we have here is pure revenge, and more fitting to the ancient, barbaric notion of justice. There are other interpretations of the atonement, however. Each seems as silly as the one discussed here, and this clearly demonstrates how primative and outdated the Christian faith is.

Toto

[mod hat on]

Please refrain from sniping at each other and try to stick to Biblical Criticism and History. If you feel that a post has been insulting, use the Report This Post button rather than escalating the insults.

Thank you.

Perhaps this abstract discussion of justice should be split off and moved to MFP? It's getting pretty far afield from this forum.

Edited to add: I have split the discussion of justice/revenge off here:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=97918

Eric H

Hello Andreas83,

This is speculation, but if you were to search for a greatest purpose for Jesus death, you might start from something Jesus said was the greatest commandments. If they are truly greatest they should have a greatest foundation.

Christ loves the father as he loves HIMSELF.
The Father loves Christ as he loves HIMSELF.

Could Christ love the Father in any greater way?

If we are created in the image of God; would it make sense if the words of the greatest commandments had a greatest meaning for the Father and Christ also?

Here is a simplistic, yet more profound way to look at the words of the greatest commandments.

When was Christ’s life, death and resurrection planned, was it during the times of the Old Testament, or was it planned before the creation of the universe began?

If Christ’s life was planned before creation began, then it seems that the universe and life could only be created after Christ had agreed to his sacrifice.

If Christ had not accepted his sacrifice, would it mean that the creation of the universe would not have gone ahead?

If the Father knew about Christ’s sacrifice before creation began, then would it mean that he had a purpose for man so great that the creation of the universe could not be achieved in any lesser way?

If the life of Christ was planned before creation began, then would his sacrifice be for all people without exception?

What purpose can be so great, that it would compel God to create the universe and life, knowing that his son would have to die?

Would it be to forgive us our sins?

Or can there be something greater?

Challenge your mind to find a greatest purpose for the creation of the universe and life; by searching for answers to three questions.

1..What greatest thing can God create?

God could create all the stars and planets of the universe; he then becomes God the builder.
God could create a whole variety of life with almost no intelligence like plants; he now becomes God the gardener'
God could create life with more intelligence to hunt for food, look for shelter, mate, and breed a future generation. If the knowledge and intelligence is limited he has now created the animal kingdom. He now becomes God the farmer.
God could create life in his own image, a life that could understand him. Creating life in his own image is the greatest form of creation open to him. He now becomes God the Father.
Does the greatest thing that God creates, depend on the relationship that he can have with them?

2.. What greatest purpose can God have to create children in his own image?

The greatest reason God can have to create children is love.
Therefore the ultimate God humanity can have is a God who loves in the greatest way.

God willingly loves all of mankind as he loves HIMSELF.

Would this be a love so great, that even God could not love in a greater way?

Can there be any greater reason to create children, even for God?

3..To find a greatest purpose for all God's children.

What greatest purpose could God set for humanity? Would it be for everyone to turn to His kind of religion and pray the way that he stipulates, or would it be to banish poverty, gain intellectual superiority, conquer sickness and death, and subdue the universe or is there more?

If the greatest reason God can have to create mankind, is to love each and everyone of us, as he loves himself, then God could create mankind, with the freedom to return God's love

Each and every member of mankind to be created with the freedom to love God the creator unconditionally.

God willingly loves everyone as he loves himself; we also need this same freedom to love everyone in the same way, so that the truth can be complete for God and mankind.

Each and every member of mankind, to be created with the freedom to love their neighbour; as they love themselves, unconditionally.

Is this how God wants his children to be one? He wants us to love each other as we love ourselves.

When you ask the question; why did Christ say they are the greatest commandment, can it possibly be because God can do nothing greater and man can do nothing greater.

Mathew 22:37 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbour as yourself.' ALL the Law and the Prophets HANG on these two commandments."

If our greatest purpose for creation is to live by the greatest commandments, then this freedom to love also gives us the choice to do good or evil.

We can marvel at the great attention to detail that is evident in everything from the tiniest single cell of life and right up to the giant structures of galaxies.

Can you find any greater purpose for all this to exist? Challenge the above statements in your mind in an honest way, test them against any religious beliefs, and test them against any form of logic.

This is only a collection of words to challenge the mind to think, I cannot make any claims from these words.

peace

Eric

Vorkosigan

I second Toto, and two votes constitutes a majority.

pierneef

There are two quite different approaches to the original question:

* The first is related to the authenticity of the account

* The second is purely theological, which spins interpretations in and out of events recorded in the Bible without questioning their veracity.

The First

Most scholars I have read believe that the Gospel stories of Jesus' arrest, death, and resurrection were heavily edited and redacted, and the version that Christians believe today was not part of the original Jesus tradition. Indeed, it was grafted onto the tradition by Paul and the early Church scholars. There may well have been among Jesus' followers such a sense of grief at his death, that some might have had hallucinations (as happens today to some who lose a loved-one) of his presence. This was massaged by Paul Inc. importing pagan stories such as these:

The Second

At the risk of having this yanked away to "Philosophy", I wanted to ask those who are believers to explain to me the logic or order that underlies the theology of Jesus' Death and Resurrection. I have some questions:

1. When Eve managed to persuade Adam to eat a fruit given to her by a talking snake with legs, God was pretty mad and damned the species to a limit to life and lots of misery. So what happened after that to make God change her mind ? Why so many centuries later would God want to "Save" humankind ? Did the species do anything to warrant being saved ?

2. Given that the species killed His Son and ignored His message, why would God have wanted to save anyone ?

3. What is the logical link between Jesus dying, and humankind being saved ? It seems a very tenuous connection at best. Anyway, he didnt die for our sins, because he didnt die according to Christian theology. So how is that inconsistency explained ?

4. Why couldnt God have simply sent Jesus to announce that humankind had been saved ? What have we gained spiritually by going through the gory tale of rejection and betrayal ? (Well, we know Mel Gibson made a mint, so perhaps the Gospels were intended as a B Movie screen play)

5. What does the phrase "die to sin" mean ? What does the "to" mean ? Why, if this is an important idea is it expressed in such an opaque fashion that believers cannot understand what it is meant to convey ?

6. What does "believing in Jesus" mean ? How does one test the authenticity of such a belief ? Do people who try to believe and dont do too well at it, still get "saved" ? Are all "beliefs" of equal value ? What happens to someone who lives everyday of her life according to Jesus' teachings but cannot accept Jesus' divinity, is she damned ? And what about the person who believes deeply in Jesus' divinity, but lives a life in violation of everything Jesus taught: is he saved ?

I look forward to the replies

Eric H

Hello pierneef, just a response to one of your questions.

If there is a God who has the knowledge and the power to create a universe, then it would make more sense if he had a plan for creation.

Anyone who makes a plan and thinks ahead will come up with contingency plans in the event of things going wrong.

If God was to create man with the freedoms of choice then he could expect things to go wrong.

If God was to create us in his own image and think of us as his children, then it makes more sense that he would be prepared to do whatever it takes to help us.

It makes more sense that Christ’s life and death on Earth was planned before the creation of the universe began and as such it was inevitable because he would know that man would mess up.

Would he go to all this trouble for his own benefit?

Or would it be for our benefit?

Peace

Eric

pierneef

I dont know what the word "image" means in its original. I will have to research that. But it is an interesting thought that "image" meamns something other or something more than "visual appearance", which (although artists have revelled in this interpretation), is rather hokey and childish. If this means that God created us in his own "nature", then the flaws of humankind originate in God Herself. So She would have known She was in for a terrible time.

The way God is presented in the books following Genesis certainly paints a picture of a rather imperfect deity full of human weaknesses, like jealously, vindictiveness etc. The early Christian tradition seems to have emphasised God's Power, in ways a little less afggressive than the OT, but it seems as if we need to love and obey God because of his power over life and death, salvation etc, rather because of God's endearing qualities. And this sentiment is parroted in churches across the country every Sunday. Maybe that is why, in the Christian faith, Jesus has become the most popular member of the Godhead Trinity.

pierneef

Well, here is some research about the Hebrew word "tselem" which has been translated as "image" in Genesis

So God and the humans She created shared qualities of nature; but of course, the interpretations are always slanted towards the wonderful aspects of God passed on to humans, and not the flaws that both might have possessed by sharing the same image.

Eric H

Hello pierneef,
I agree with your interpretation that created in God’s image refers more to being created with God’s nature.

Supposing God’s greatest good quality was the freedom to love. He could create us with the freedom to love and give us the greatest commandments to love God and to love our neighbour.

In the Bible love often refers to serving others; and this involves some sacrifice on our part.

When you follow the life of Jesus, he lives a life of service to others, he washes the feet of his disciples.

He does nothing to attract wealth or power yet the story of Christ gives him all the qualities to attract wealth and power.

We all seem to have the freedom to love and to serve, but it seems easier for us to put ourselves first. Power, wealth and lust are opposing forces to love and they seem more attractive to us because they relate more directly to our own needs. Often going down this path we put ourselves first, and the temptation is for us to take more than we need, this becomes greed.

There are enough resources in this world for all people’s needs, but there are not enough resources for all peoples greed.

Maybe God can only try and influence us to do the right thing, and then it is up to us.

Peace

Eric