Soul Invictus

In this thread there is a discussion on if Jesus is God or not.

I was wondering if we could compare the Greek word usages in the following verses:

I Tim 2:5

Ephesians 1:3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:17

Without initially jumping into whether Jesus is argued as God or not, can we discuss the differences in meaning of the Greek word for "God" and "man" in the Timothy verse, as well as for the two Ephesians verses. I want to know if the words are the same in each of the three verses. I also want to know the meaning for "Lord" in the the two Ephesians verses. Lastly, can we compare the usages of the word "Lord" as well? I think this will illustrate the exact definitions of the words that are used.

Thank you,

SI

Chris Weimer

Lord in Greek is κυÏ?ιος and literally meant a master. Latin translates κυÏ?ιος as dominus. God is θεος. It has the same meaning as in English. Zeus is θεος. Part of the problem that exists in ambiguity is that not only is Jesus Lord, but in the LXX YHWH is translated as κυÏ?ιος. Most likely, Paul distinguished between the two, with Jesus as Lord and Lord as YHWH. As far as I know, know one describes themselves as a slave (δουλος) to God but often as a slave to Jesus the Lord (ο κυÏ?ιος Ιησους ΧÏ?ιστος).

Soul Invictus

What was the cultural meaning for "master" for the Greeks? Is it a reasonably title given to humans, as leaders were often referred to as lords?

Okay, but are the references of "master" the same (ex. English reference to lords) ?


Are you saying that Paul referenced Jesus as Lord, and that Lord was an entity and not a title? I'm really curious if lord held more of the connotation of master/leader/teacher and not so much of a god being.

Chris Weimer

Master originated as a term for head of the house in Latin. Honestly, I couldn't tell you the etymology for the Greek kurios, but I think it has to do with being a "Lord" over the slaves.

What do you mean?

As far as I know, Jesus is never called "God" in the core Pauline letters. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here. But what that would mean is that Paul spoke of Jesus as a lord (or master) and God as a lord (or master) or even the Lord (since he, if we take him at face value, most likely knew the significance of calling YHWH kurios).

Lord didn't have the connotation for God. Humans could be lords. It was only done that way in the LXX because YHWH couldn't be pronounced.

Soul Invictus

Unless someone knows, this will be the focus of a little research for me.


What do you mean?

Scratch that. I reread your post. What is Latin for God?

Lord didn't have the connotation for God. Humans could be lords.

This was the point I was hoping to draw out.

It was only done that way in the LXX because YHWH couldn't be pronounced.

What is the LXX? I kept seeing you reference this, but I'm not familiar with a version by this name. Is it the KJV? Also, taking into consideration that YHWH couldn't be pronounced, isn't YHWH the reference for God, and not lord or (the) Lord?

Amaleq13

LXX = Septuagint

Ben C Smith

Deus. (Also the name of a song by the Sugarcubes.)

LXX is the Roman numeral for 70 used as an abbreviation for the Septuagint, supposedly a Greek translation of the OT put together by 70 (or is it 72?) translators.

Ben.

Chris Weimer

Ben Smith and Amaleq13 both answered your other questions.

Try B-Greek. If you're not subscribed to there, I can ask the question for you.

You've got it backwards. In the Hebrew, God is either elohim or YHWH. Elohim is translated theos in Greek, and YHWH is translated kurios.

Soul Invictus

Could you? I can subscribe to it though since I have been having a lot of questions about Greek recently. I would like to know the answer to this one quick though.

johno

I am not a scholar and so my comment might be very naive, but I find this discussion very intriguing. I was under the impression that YHWH was the personal name of god, rather like Zeus in the Greek pantheon. It seems strange to me to translate YHVH, in terms of English grammar, a proper noun, as kurios, a common noun. At the back of my mind is the vague recollection that the -im suffix signifies a plural. So the Hebrew plural is translated to the Greek singular? Perhaps there are good historical reasons for these choices, but from my modern perspective, on these details alone, the Greek must be very different from the Hebrew.

johno