Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Elena · 04-21-2008, 02:07 PM

Is Flavius Josephus good historian?

If yes, there is problem.

In Antiquities he is saying that temple of Isis was destroyed. Passage just after one of Jesus Christ.

In War he is saying that temple is still here.

Does Saturninus have 2 wives?

All passage after Jesus Christ dont make sense for good historian.

Solitary Man · 04-21-2008, 02:26 PM

Josephus has problems throughout his works. Often the two accounts contradict each other. Read Steve Mason's article in Chilton/Neusner's book on the subject (or via: amazon.co.uk).

Toto · 04-21-2008, 02:44 PM

Josephus may or may not be a good historian, but this is not necessarily an error.

Antiquities 18

Quote:

4. About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder, and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome.. . .

Tiberius inquired into the matter thoroughly by examining the priests about it, and ordered them to be crucified, as well as Ide, who was the occasion of their perdition, and who had contrived the whole matter, which was so injurious to the woman. He also demolished the temple of Isis, and gave order that her statue should be thrown into the river Tiber; while he only banished Mundus, but did no more to him, because he supposed that what crime he had committed was done out of the passion of love. And these were the circumstances which concerned the temple of Isis, and the injuries occasioned by her priests. I now return to the relation of what happened about this time to the Jews at Rome, as I formerly told you I would.

This happened around 19 CE, before Josephus was born, so he must be relating a well known story.

The reference in War is much later, to the conclusion of the Jewish War:

War 7

Quote:

4. Now all the soldiery marched out beforehand by companies, and in their several ranks, under their several commanders, in the night time, and were about the gates, not of the upper palaces, but those near the temple of Isis; for there it was that the emperors had rested the foregoing night. And as soon as ever it was day, Vespasian and Titus came out crowned with laurel, and clothed in those ancient purple habits which were proper to their family, and then went as far as Octavian's Walks; . . .

According to this pagan site:

Quote:

In 19 AD Tiberius (42 b.C.-37 AD) ordered to demolish the temple of Isis and to throw in the Tiber River the statue of the goddess.

The situation changed with Caligula (12-41 AD), descendant of August and of Mark Antony, who built a great temple devoted to Isis in Campus Martius: the Iseum Campense.

Claudius (10 b.C.-54 AD), Nero (37-68 AD) and Vespasian (9-79 AD) gave their support to the cult of the goddess. Vespasian, before celebrating together with his son Titus the victory on the rebellious Hebrews, spent a night of prayer in the Iseum to thank the great goddess. In 71 a medal was coined with the Iseum Campense.

The Cults of the Roman Empire (or via: amazon.co.uk) and The Egyptian and Egyptianizing Monuments of Imperial Rome (available on google books - see p. 23) agree with this as a probably timeline. Buildings in Rome were often destroyed and rebuilt, and there is ample evidence of a temple of Isis in the area.

Elena · 04-21-2008, 03:00 PM

Quote:

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

4. About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder, and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome.

All happen in 19 AD? Interesting.

Elena · 04-21-2008, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solitary Man

Josephus has problems throughout his works. Often the two accounts contradict each other. Read Steve Mason's article in Chilton/Neusner's book on the subject (or via: amazon.co.uk).

Do you have list or book with contradictions of Josephus?

Toto · 04-21-2008, 03:34 PM

This article discusses Shaye Cohen's Josephus in Galilee and Rome: his Vita and Development as a Historian (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Quote:

It's practically the only study that concentrates on the War-Life dichotomy. The book is quite negative about Josephus as a reliable source . . . and about his character generally. In this aspect, it harks back to what is known as the "classical" view of Josephus derived from late 19th century German source-criticism of Josephus' corpus. Epitomized by Walter Laqueur's work in the 1920s, this view neglected the likely socio-political and theological circumstances under which Josephus composed his history. It considered only information meant to support the classical conjecture that Josephus brazenly utilized deceitful forgeries (earlier spurious works) in a way so as to flatter his Roman benefactors and rationalize his own moral weakness. Laqueur and company painted Josephus as only wanting to promote his assumed role as Flavian lackey and gifted author. Notwithstanding this negative spin, critics could not continue to ignore the obvious Jewish nationalistic (in this sense "apologetic") features and goals that influenced Josephus' writing. I refer here to the later works, Antiquities of the Jews (his proud paraphrase of and postscript to the Old Testament) and Against Apion (a combative attack on pagan anti-Semitic slanders).

Happy reading.

John Kesler · 04-21-2008, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elena

Do you have list or book with contradictions of Josephus?

See here.

Minimalist · 04-21-2008, 06:31 PM

Quote:

All happen in 19 AD? Interesting.

Josephus is famous for his digressions but, in this case, I belong to the school which maintains that the TF is an outright 4th century xtian forgery so I don't think you can blame Josephus for that one.

squiz · 04-21-2008, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

All happen in 19 AD? Interesting.

Josephus is famous for his digressions but, in this case, I belong to the school which maintains that the TF is an outright 4th century xtian forgery so I don't think you can blame Josephus for that one.

Is there any evidence for this 19AD claim?

Minimalist · 04-21-2008, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Josephus is famous for his digressions but, in this case, I belong to the school which maintains that the TF is an outright 4th century xtian forgery so I don't think you can blame Josephus for that one.

Is there any evidence for this 19AD claim?

I can't find any reference to it, other than Josephus. Secondly, in a chapter dealing with the actions of Pilate...real or imagined...the year 19 AD would have been under the praefect Valerius Gratus who served from 15 to 26 AD. It seems an odd place to put it, no?

04-21-2008, 02:07 PM	#1
Elena Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Switzerland Posts: 36	Flavius Josephus and Isis Temple Is Flavius Josephus good historian? If yes, there is problem. In Antiquities he is saying that temple of Isis was destroyed. Passage just after one of Jesus Christ. In War he is saying that temple is still here. Does Saturninus have 2 wives? All passage after Jesus Christ dont make sense for good historian.

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04-21-2008, 02:26 PM	#2
Solitary Man Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: ירושלים Posts: 1,701	Josephus has problems throughout his works. Often the two accounts contradict each other. Read Steve Mason's article in Chilton/Neusner's book on the subject (or via: amazon.co.uk).

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