Freethought & Rationalism Archive

DBT · 08-20-2007, 12:33 AM

Different attributes, many of them so incompatable that they cannot be reconciled.

seebs · 08-20-2007, 07:18 AM

The question is very difficult to answer, because it comes down to the question of how we tell whether people are talking about the same thing. Is it enough to say that we are talking about the "God of Abraham"? One person argued that it matters which of Abraham's kids you're talking about, because they followed different gods.

You can run into the same problems talking about perfectly ordinary people. Imagine, if you will, a group of people who are talking about Noam Chomsky, only some of them are pretty sure he's a physicist, not a linguist, some of them think he's sort of right-wing and pro-corporation, and some of them think that the left-wing linguist is named "John Chomsky".

Are they talking about the same guy? Maybe. When you get one who says he's a physicist who was closely involved with the shuttle explosion investigation in the 80s, and his way of diagramming subatomic particles is still widely used, you might start saying "hang on, that's not Chomsky, that's Feynman".

Merely observing that claims about attributes cannot be reconciled doesn't show that people are not talking about the same entity; it just shows that at least some of their claims about that entity are wrong. What of it?

figuer · 08-20-2007, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyndis

Either God is insane, or there's more than one deity running things.

HE IS INSANE.

figuer · 08-20-2007, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samurai

So basically, in Abraham's perspective, the God of the Bible is only One whose name is "I am that I am", that is equal to Eli, that is equal to Jesus Christ.

"From Abraham's perspective" he wasn't called "I am that I am", because that is post Moses, nor is it equal to J.C.

Trout · 08-20-2007, 07:36 AM

Enh...same basic conception of a god, same basic geographic area, same bunch of intolerant tribes running about hearding goats.....yeah, the odds are pretty good they've all duped themselves into believing the same lie.

rhutchin · 08-20-2007, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyndis

Is Christianity even a monotheistic religion?

First off, you have Satan, who is aparently powerful enough that he can cause trouble for God. If God is supposed to be omnipotent, it goes to reason that Satan just as powerful.

...

That doesn't even touch on the problem of the trinity. God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself? Either God is insane, or there's more than one deity running things.

Only one entity can truly be "omnipotent" at a time. God is omnipotent; Satan is not. Whatever God wants to do, he can do and no one, including Satan, can stop Him. God always gets His way.

God took the form of a human who then was punished for the sin of humans. That act is the basis for God forgiving some people and allowing them to enter heaven. One deity but manifested in different ways.

rhutchin · 08-20-2007, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adren@line

no, they do not worship the same God, as God is defined by those who believe in God, and the definitions can vary greatly.

For example, the Jews believe in a God that favors them over everyone else and choose them as "his" people.

The Christians believe in all of that plus the idea that Jesus is God or the son of God and the Messiah.

Muslims believe that God did not favor the Jews nor did he incarnate as Jesus, and essentially believe that God favors Muslims and sent Mohhamed "his" final, perfect revelation.

These are all three very different definitions of God. Jews do not believe in Mohhamed or the claims that Muslims make about God and hence believe in a different definition of God. The same with Christians. Likewise, Muslims do not accept that the Jews are the choosen people (regardless of the fact that Jews do) nor do they accept Jesus as God-incarnate.

As stated, God is defined by the believers in God, and the three Abrahmics faiths all believe in a different God that favors whatever individual Abrahamic group over the rest of humanity, and hence all represent different definitions.

The fact that all worship "one" God (which is debatable when it comes to Christianity) is extremely vague. Zoroastrians also worship "one" God as do many Hindus (some will only worship Vishnu or Kali) but that does not mean that Vishnu = Ahura Mazda = Allah = Yaweh = Jesus.

It is more than just definition. Christians claim that Christ is God and they specifically pray to Christ. Jews and Muslims reject the idea that Christ is God, They, therefore, pray to an separtae unique entity that they say is not Christ. Jews will then distinguish the entity to which they pray from that entity to which the Muslims pray.

funinspace · 08-20-2007, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

It is more than just definition. Christians claim that Christ is God and they specifically pray to Christ. Jews and Muslims reject the idea that Christ is God, They, therefore, pray to an separtae unique entity that they say is not Christ. Jews will then distinguish the entity to which they pray from that entity to which the Muslims pray.

Maybe the Jesus-Yahweh God, merely presented another of his faces/aspects to the children of Ishmael, from which he made a great nationâ€¦

rhutchin · 08-20-2007, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

It is more than just definition. Christians claim that Christ is God and they specifically pray to Christ. Jews and Muslims reject the idea that Christ is God, They, therefore, pray to an separtae unique entity that they say is not Christ. Jews will then distinguish the entity to which they pray from that entity to which the Muslims pray.

Maybe the Jesus-Yahweh God, merely presented another of his faces/aspects to the children of Ishmael, from which he made a great nationâ€¦

Doesn't seem like it.

Hyndis · 08-20-2007, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Rightmire

The question is not about whether they worship the same god but whether they are all considered to be Abrahamic religions. The answer, according to the traditions of the various religions is yes. The Jews, of course, are descended from Abraham by tradition. The Christians began as a Jewish sect so that belief is also descended from the God of Abraham. It is a little more difficult to define the Muslim religion, but the tradition claims, I understand, that it is in direct descent from Abraham through Ishmael, the son of the slave girl that Sara sent into Abraham before she became pregnant at age 70 so that Hagar and Ishmael were cast out into the desert. Those are the bases for saying all three are descendants of Abraham. Of course, in the centuries since there have been numerous changes in the processes of worship, of the definitions of the god they worship, etc., so you can say they are different religions. But all can claim, if they wish or are so defined, as descendants of Abraham's god. But then if you read A Brief History of God you will find that the God of Abraham changed considerably from his time in the Bible up to the time that the Christian sect arose.

Islam also regards Jesus as a prophet. Not a deity or the son of a deity or a deity with multiple personality disorder, but just a prophet.

Just like Christianity claims to amend Judaism (NT overrides the OT), Islam claims to amend Christianity.

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08-20-2007, 12:33 AM	#1
DBT Contributor Join Date: May 2003 Location: ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן ǝɥʇ Posts: 17,906	Different attributes, many of them so incompatable that they cannot be reconciled.

08-20-2007, 07:18 AM	#2
seebs Contributor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 24,524	The question is very difficult to answer, because it comes down to the question of how we tell whether people are talking about the same thing. Is it enough to say that we are talking about the "God of Abraham"? One person argued that it matters which of Abraham's kids you're talking about, because they followed different gods. You can run into the same problems talking about perfectly ordinary people. Imagine, if you will, a group of people who are talking about Noam Chomsky, only some of them are pretty sure he's a physicist, not a linguist, some of them think he's sort of right-wing and pro-corporation, and some of them think that the left-wing linguist is named "John Chomsky". Are they talking about the same guy? Maybe. When you get one who says he's a physicist who was closely involved with the shuttle explosion investigation in the 80s, and his way of diagramming subatomic particles is still widely used, you might start saying "hang on, that's not Chomsky, that's Feynman". Merely observing that claims about attributes cannot be reconciled doesn't show that people are not talking about the same entity; it just shows that at least some of their claims about that entity are wrong. What of it?

08-20-2007, 07:36 AM	#5
Trout Contributor Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: the north Posts: 12,935	Enh...same basic conception of a god, same basic geographic area, same bunch of intolerant tribes running about hearding goats.....yeah, the odds are pretty good they've all duped themselves into believing the same lie.

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