Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 04-28-2010, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

I believe that it would have been very unlikely that anyone who believed that God gave Moses the power to perform miracles, and that God healed people, would believe that Jesus cast out demons and healed people by the power of Beelzebub. Surely no one believed that God would give Jesus the power to heal sick people if Jesus cast out demons by the power of Beelzebub. Followers of the Old Testament would have believed that casting out demons and healing sick people were good things, and that good things come from God, not from Beelzebub. Why would anyone believe that Beelzebub would give people the power to cast out his fellow beings? That would be a ridiculous assumption. Surely followers of the Old Testament expected God to send a messiah, and would have been quite pleased if a messiah cast out demons and healed sick people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I suggested earlier in this thread that Jesus was being compared to the magicians who imitated Moses' miracles using power that was not from God.

But why would anyone have made such a comparison? As far as I know, the Old Testament always attributes healings to God, never to the Devil. That indicates that if Jesus healed people, followers of the Old Testament would have believed that God gave him the power to heal people. Since casting out demons is also very beneficial, it is reasonable to assume that followers of the Old Testament would have approved of anything that a messiah did that was beneficial.

It would not be reasonable to assume that any follower of the Old Testament believed that Beelzebub would give people the power to cast out his fellow evil beings, which would have made God look good, not Beelzebub since people would have believed that God was responsible.

andrewcriddle · 04-28-2010, 09:45 PM

Hi Johnny

What do you make of the story in Tosefta Hullin 2:22 and parallels ?

Eleazar b Damah dies of snakebite rather than commit the sin of being healed by a follower of Jesus in the name of Jesus.

This seems to accept that healing in the name of Jesus works but regards such healing as forbidden to pious Jews.

Andrew Criddle

Johnny Skeptic · 04-29-2010, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Hi Johnny.

What do you make of the story in Tosefta Hullin 2:22 and parallels?

Eleazar b Damah dies of snakebite rather than commit the sin of being healed by a follower of Jesus in the name of Jesus.

This seems to accept that healing in the name of Jesus works but regards such healing as forbidden to pious Jews.

Consider the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tosefta

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The traditional view is that the Tosefta should be dated to a period concurrent with or shortly after the redaction of the Mishnah. This view pre-supposes that the Tosefta was produced in order to record variant material not included in the Mishnah.

Modern scholarship can be roughly divided into two camps. Some, such as Jacob N. Epstein theorize that the Tosefta as we have it developed from a proto-Tosefta recension which formed much of the basis for later Amoraic debate. Others, such as Hanokh Albeck, theorize that the Tosefta is a later compendium of several baraitot collections which were in use during the Amoraic period.

More recent scholarship, such as that of Yaakov Elman, concludes that since the Tosefta, as we know it, must be dated linguistically as an example of Middle Hebrew 1, it was most likely compiled in early Amoraic times from oral transmission of baraitot. "Babylonian Baraitot in Tosefta and the 'Dialectology' of Middle Hebrew," Association for Jewish Studies Review 16 (1991), 1-29. Professor Shamma Friedman, has found that the Tosefta draws on relatively early Tannaitic source material and that parts of the Tosefta predate the Mishnah.

Alberdina Houtman and colleagues theorize that the Mishnah was compiled in order to establish an authoritative text on halakhic tradition. However, a more conservative party opposed the exclusion of the rest of tradition and produced the Tosefta to avoid the impression that the written Mishnah was equivalent to the entire oral Torah. The original intention was that the two texts would be viewed on equal standing, but the succinctness of the Mishnah and the power and influence of Yehuda Ha-Nassi made it more popular among most students of tradition.

Ultimately, the state of the source material is such to allow divergent opinions to exist. These opinions serve to show the difficulties in establishing a clear picture of the origins of the Tosefta.

The last sentence says "these opinions serve to show the difficulties in establishing a clear picture of the origins of the Tosefta."

Regarding your comment "Eleazar b Damah dies of snakebite rather than commit the sin of being healed by a follower of Jesus in the name of Jesus," what makes you think that the story is true?

Maybe the story was redacted to agree with the biblical claims that the Pharisees believed that Jesus performed miracles by the power of Beelzebub. On a similar note, I believe that the author of Matthew made up the story of the magi in order to try to fulfill Micah 5:2.

What Old Testament grounds would Eleazar b Damah have had to believe that a supposed messiah who was able to heal sick people got the power to heal sick people from Beelzebub? Apparently, the Old Testament always attributes healings to God.

It would be ridiculous for anyone to believe that Beelzebub would give a man the power to cast out his own fellow evil beings, and allow God to get the credit.

andrewcriddle · 04-29-2010, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

...................................
Regarding your comment "Eleazar b Damah dies of snakebite rather than commit the sin of being healed by a follower of Jesus in the name of Jesus," what makes you think that the story is true?

Maybe the story was redacted to agree with the biblical claims that the Pharisees believed that Jesus performed miracles by the power of Beelzebub. On a similar note, I believe that the author of Matthew made up the story of the magi in order to try to fulfill Micah 5:2.

Are you really suggesting that the Tosefta here has been redacted by Christians ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

What Old Testament grounds would Eleazar b Damah have had to believe that a supposed messiah who was able to heal sick people got the power to heal sick people from Beelzebub? Apparently, the Old Testament always attributes healings to God.

It would be ridiculous for anyone to believe that Beelzebub would give a man the power to cast out his own fellow evil beings, and allow God to get the credit.

I think I understand your difficulty.

The idea of Beelzebub giving people power to heal seems bizarre to the modern mind and was probably alien to the classical Old Testament world view in which God has a near monopoly of supernatural power.

But this is quite separate from whether or not these ideas were part of the worldview in the late 2nd Temple period, under Hellenistic, Persian and other influences.

In general, from a cross-cultural perspective, the claim that so-and-so has genuine supernatural powers but not from God or from anything good is found very frequently. Such beliefs are the basis of allegations of sorcery and witchcraft.

Andrew Criddle

Johnny Skeptic · 04-29-2010, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

In general, from a cross-cultural perspective, the claim that so-and-so has genuine supernatural powers but not from God or from anything good is found very frequently.

What historical records show that some Hebrews during the time of Jesus believed that any being other than God healed sick people? Why would any follower of the Old Testament believe such a thing since the Old Testament apparently always attributes healings to God?

Regarding your comment "Eleazar b Damah dies of snakebite rather than commit the sin of being healed by a follower of Jesus in the name of Jesus," what makes you think that the story is true?

My main reason for starting this thread was to show that the Bible contains errors aside from obvious copyist and scribal errors. You are not arguing that the Bible does not contain any errors other than obvious copyist and scribal errors, are you?

andrewcriddle · 04-29-2010, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Regarding your comment "Eleazar b Damah dies of snakebite rather than commit the sin of being healed by a follower of Jesus in the name of Jesus," what makes you think that the story is true?

The truth or otherwise of the story is probably not central to the point I was making, which is that Jews c 200 CE believed that this sort of thing could happen. ie that people could have genuine but bad/forbidden/ungodly healing powers.

Andrew Criddle

Johnny Skeptic · 04-29-2010, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Regarding your comment "Eleazar b Damah dies of snakebite rather than commit the sin of being healed by a follower of Jesus in the name of Jesus," what makes you think that the story is true?

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

The truth or otherwise of the story is probably not central to the point I was making, which is that Jews c 200 CE believed that this sort of thing could happen, i.e. that people could have genuine but bad/forbidden/ungodly healing powers.

What are the oldest copies of records that claim that? Who kept the records over the centuries?

Why would any follower of the Old Testament believe such a thing since the Old Testament apparently always attributes healings to God?

My main reason for starting this thread was to show that the Bible contains errors aside from obvious copyist and scribal errors. You are not arguing that the Bible does not contain any errors other than obvious copyist and scribal errors, are you? Please answer the question. If you believe that God inspired and preserved the originals free of errors except for obvious copyist and scribal errors, I will vacate this thread and use some arguments that I believe will be more difficult for you to refute than the arguments that I have used in this thread.

bacht · 04-29-2010, 01:07 PM

There is the story of the witch of Endor in I Sam 28, consulted by King Saul in order to conjure the spirit of Samuel. And there are the regulations against sorcery in the Law, which suggest an old recognition of the phenomenon of 'illicit' magic.

Johnny Skeptic · 04-29-2010, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

There is the story of the witch of Endor in I Sam 28, consulted by King Saul in order to conjure the spirit of Samuel. And there are the regulations against sorcery in the Law, which suggest an old recognition of the phenomenon of 'illicit' magic.

Ok, but as far as I know, the Old Testament always attributes healings to God.

andrewcriddle · 05-01-2010, 06:01 AM

I've been trying to look for evidence earlier than the late Midrashes for the belief that Pharaoh's magicians imitated Moses with demonic help.

The Testament of Solomon has the demon Abezethibou say

Quote:

I was present when Moses came before Pharaoh and hardened his heart. I am he upon whom Jannes and Jambres [traditional names for Pharaoh's magicians] called, who fought against Moses in Egypt. I am he who wrestled against Moses with wonders and signs.

The Testament of Solomon in its present form is a Christian pseudepigraph of (probably) the 3rd century CE, but it draws upon older Jewish traditions.

Andrew Criddle

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04-28-2010, 09:45 PM	#42
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	Hi Johnny What do you make of the story in Tosefta Hullin 2:22 and parallels ? Eleazar b Damah dies of snakebite rather than commit the sin of being healed by a follower of Jesus in the name of Jesus. This seems to accept that healing in the name of Jesus works but regards such healing as forbidden to pious Jews. Andrew Criddle

04-29-2010, 01:07 PM	#48
bacht Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2,305	There is the story of the witch of Endor in I Sam 28, consulted by King Saul in order to conjure the spirit of Samuel. And there are the regulations against sorcery in the Law, which suggest an old recognition of the phenomenon of 'illicit' magic.

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