stephan huller

I had a wonderful dinner with my Samaritan friend Benny Tsedaka. We went to Ivar's down on the docks of Seattle harbor with my son (who was mostly playing Angry Birds Star Wars). We spoke about many things but one thing that Benny reminded me of is the fact that the Samaritan Targum translates the s't in Genesis 4:7:

by the word which means 'to suspend' (= ylt). Why does this matter? The same word means to crucify or hang according to Jastrow and Sokoloff. Thus:

or

The discussion is between God and Cain which is interesting of course because there are a number of early Christian groups which take an interest in Cain. Genesis 4:7 is so difficult to understand that the rabbis (Yoma 52 a-b) numbered this among the five verses in the Torah this grammatical construction of which is undecided. Josephus resolves the problem by completely omitting the verse. Yet the idea that someone might have made the connection between Jesus being suspended and the confusing words from God to Cain isn't all that unbelievable.

Irenaeus and Epiphanius note that there was a group who "commend Cain and Judas, as I said, and they say, 'This is why he has betrayed him; he intended to abolish things that had been properly taught.' But others say, 'No, he betrayed him even though he was good, in accordance with the heavenly knowledge. For the archons knew,' they say, 'that if Christ were surrendered to the cross the weaker power would be drained. And when Judas found this out,' they say, 'he eagerly did everything he could to betray him, performing a good work for our salvation. And we must commend him and give him the credit, since the salvation of the cross was effected for us through him, and for that reason the revelation of the things on high.'

I even think that the Marcionite name Jesus is rooted in the collective future tense of nasa = יִשְׂא֥וּ (Yisu). Look at some of the verses associated with this term such as Exodus 28:43:

In many versions of the myth which explains why the temple was destroyed the loss of the high priest (and thus his failure to enter the holy of holies as proscribed) is cited.

Similarly we are told at the beginning of numbers that they are to:

But the Levites not only yisu the tabernacle but also yisu the guilt of the nation:

I can't help get the feeling that the name Jesus was rooted in the idea of his being 'suspended' or hanged by the Jews as the tabernacle, somehow leading to the end of the old covenant. The idea has implications for the mythicist interpretation because whether they recognize it or not the name 'Jesus' (= Joshua) is a stumbling block. A god could not have been named with the appellation of a human being. There has to be something else behind it.

The Hebrew word יִשְׂא֤ is spelled with sin not shin hence its compatibility with the Marcionite Isu.

Sheshbazzar

אמר־נא שבלת אֹו אמר סבלת מי יתבונן׃

outhouse

It is a tough evolution to follow. Much is based not just on who is stating the name, but "where" its being stated and when.

I have been running with what I thought the real man would have been called in Galilee with the assumption he was real, Yehoshua. Not used as much as Yeshua, but more of a Galilean usage.

stephan huller

My beginning point is (a) that the Marcionites did not call Jesus Ishu (shin) but Isu and (b) that they thought Jesus was a god. No one has been able to explain (a) satisfactorily. Mythicists somehow think it is possible to name a god 'Joshua.' Not possible.

stephan huller

And remember when I post things, I don't claim to have all the answers. I just start with a perplexing problem - here the Marcionite usage of Isu - and then try and build a bridge a quarter of the way to a solution. I don't claim that this is the solution. Just (maybe) part of the way there. My point is to collaborate on an answer.

outhouse

I dont think he started out as a god under Judaism.


Marcionites however you have a great point.

Sheshbazzar

Maybe that answer is as simple as that they did not spell nor pronounce the name the same as the Jerusalem Jews. Wouldn't be a first, ethnic or sectarian pride can be a killer,

sotto voce

... because Cain was the first-born. Like Jesus. The old man talks to the new man. Old Adam, meet new Adam. The fallen, with the Seed to crush the serpent's head.

Cain would have been raised, had he done well. Jesus was raised, because he did well. "When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to me."

Unlike Cain, but like God, Abel gave the best of the first-born, as anything less would have been thus-wise:

Abel - "I love you; but not very much."

God - "Go hang."

stephan huller

More about the word pronounced Teleee=Tav-Lamed-Yud, in this regard of Genesis 4:7 is to luft up the sin - If you make good God will forgive=Lift up the sin. The same with for instance: Genesis 18:26b, 19:21a, 32:22, 49:3b Exoodus, 32:32a

Duvduv

How does anyone know what anyone knew about marcionites other than some claims of the biased church writers?