Freethought & Rationalism Archive

cognac · 07-21-2005, 02:57 PM

Did anyone catch this story? Study was supposedly published in the July 21 issue of Nauture.

Any analysis or comments?

http://www.livescience.com/history/0..._catacomb.html

Quote:

But the fact that the catacombs are all constructed with similar layouts and architecture suggests a common origin.* Rutgers and his colleagues have used radiocarbon dating to show that the Jewish Villa Torlonia catacomb was begun in the second century AD -- and perhaps even earlier -- making it the oldest known of the Roman catacombs.

Toto · 07-21-2005, 03:24 PM

National Geographic article

Quote:

Using radiocarbon dating techniques, the team found that charcoal fragments embedded in lime powder used in the construction of Villa Torlonia dated from 50 B.C. to A.D. 400. The discovery suggests that the Jewish catacomb came into use a century before the earliest Christian sites.

The researchers describe their findings in tomorrow's issue of the journal Nature.

The discovery also suggests that the Jewish roots of early Christianity run far deeper than previously thought, according to the study's lead author, Leonard V. Rutgers, professor of late antiquity at Utrecht University in the Netherlands.

"Scholars have frequently argued that Christianity came into its own fairly early on in the first century, and from then on there was no Jewish influence," he said. "The period of separation probably took a lot longer and was much more gradual than we thought."

Wallener · 07-21-2005, 07:24 PM

I'm not clear what is supposed to be surprising here...that Jews had a significant presence in Rome long before the Christian era seems a given since Jews had already been twice-exiled from Rome before the Second Temple even came down.

Toto · 07-21-2005, 10:55 PM

The "suprise" is that the archeology does not agree with the standard history of early Christianity contained in the book of Acts. According to Acts and the conventional history, the split between Christianity and Judaism happened in the first century, and the railings in the gospels and Paul's letters against the "Jews" reflect that split. Historians assume that the edit of Jamnia refers to the expulsion of Christians from Jewish synagoges.

example of the conventional wisdom:

Quote:

In the 80's the Pharasee dominated Sanhedrin held a meeting at Jamnia, a town to the east of Jerusalem. They formulated the synagogue prayer :

"...the Nazarenes and the minim perish as in a moment and blotted out from the book of life and with the..."

References in the Talmud indicate that the 'minim' and the 'Nazarenes' usually refers to Christians.

The grim sentiments in the Benediction 12 reflects the thought separation of synagogue and Church after the end of the war in A. D. 70.

Toto · 07-22-2005, 12:38 AM

Here is a link to the full story in Nature: Death in Rome

The full article requires a subscription or an institutional affiliation.

Huon · 07-22-2005, 01:39 AM

The so-called "soft volcanic rock" tufa is not volcanic at all. It is limestone, and indeed, hardens when exposed to air. Tufa is very common in France. This mistake could have been avoided in a paper which has scientific pretences.

andrewcriddle · 07-22-2005, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The "suprise" is that the archeology does not agree with the standard history of early Christianity contained in the book of Acts. According to Acts and the conventional history, the split between Christianity and Judaism happened in the first century, and the railings in the gospels and Paul's letters against the "Jews" reflect that split. Historians assume that the edit of Jamnia refers to the expulsion of Christians from Jewish synagoges.

The problem with this is that it seems certain that a split of some sort had occurred between Jews and Christians before the midddle of the 2nd century.

If, as this research suggests Jews began building catacombs in the early 2nd century and Christians started copying them towards the very end of the 2nd century, then this copying occurred despite a split having occurred.

I don't see any real difference for Jewish-Christian relations in this period between this suggestion and the traditional idea that Christians began building catacombs towards the very end of the 2nd century and Jews started imitating them in the early 3rd. (The important similarities between Jewish and Chrstian catacombs are IIUC generally accepted.)

In general a split between two religious groups does not necessarily prevent borrowing of practices from one by the other.

Andrew Criddle

Oolon Colluphid · 08-01-2005, 08:21 AM

This post has been merged into an earlier thread on the topic

Hello BC&H folks!

For a while now, I've been running a repository in E/C for abstracts of recent papers from Science, Nature etc. I've just found one that has little E/C relevance, but may be of interest to you nice people here.

Rutgers et al, Nature 436, 339 (21 July 2005)

Radiocarbon dating: Jewish inspiration of Christian catacombs

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nature Abstract

A Jewish cemetery in ancient Rome harbours a secret that bears on the history of early Christianity.

The famous catacombs of ancient Rome are huge underground cemeteries, of which two Jewish catacomb complexes of uncertain age and 60 early-Christian catacombs have survived. Here we use radiocarbon dating to determine the age of wood originating from one of the Jewish catacombs and find that it pre-dates its Christian counterparts by at least 100 years. These results indicate that burial in Roman catacombs may not have begun as a strictly Christian practice, as is commonly believed, but rather that its origin may lie in Jewish funerary customs.

Enjoy!

Let me know if you'd like a pdf of the full thing.

Cheers, Oolon

Oolon Colluphid · 08-02-2005, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

The so-called "soft volcanic rock" tufa is not volcanic at all. It is limestone, and indeed, hardens when exposed to air. Tufa is very common in France.

Erm, whoopee-doo? Who mentioned tufa? I imagine dead trees are common in France too, but -- just perhaps -- these folks do know what they're doing...?

Quote:

This mistake could have been avoided in a paper which has scientific pretences.

Perhaps you should read it before passing such a foolish judgement on a peer-reviewed paper in Nature?

Quote:

The Jewish and Christian catacombs of Rome are all thought to date from the same general period — namely, from the early third century through to the early fifth century AD — but more precise dating has been difficult. We therefore collected organic material for radiocarbon dating that had been incorporated during the construction of grave recesses (loculi) in the Jewish Villa Torlonia catacomb […]

Each loculus was sealed by a small wall of rubble and bricks that was covered in a smooth layer of lime. Pieces of charcoal from the limekiln that had been embedded in the lime were collected for dating. As young trimmings would have been the preferred wood for generating the high temperature (around 900C) necessary to effect the conversion of limestone to lime, we consider that contamination from mature or already dead wood is unlikely.

[…]

Our analysis reveals a complete construction history of the upper and lower catacombs. The sequence of 2 [sigma]calendar ages ranges from 50 BC (from a sample at the entrance area to the lower catacomb) to AD 400 (sample from region A in the upper catacomb) (see supplementary information). Various charcoal samples were systematically identified as being derived from taxa known to be growing in the area during the time of the catacomb’s construction. […]

Our results are consistent with the chronological layout of the catacomb (Fig. 1).

Legend:
For radiocarbon dates of samples taken from different construction sites, see supplementary information. Numbers refer to the sample origin; letter−number combinations refer to gallery number. Scale bar, 10 m.

Quote:

[…]

The only sample that does not fit our chronology is number 10, which originates from a gallery that was dug into a pre-existing network of underground water tunnels.

[…]

This evidence indicates that the Villa Torlonia catacomb came into use in the second century AD, a century before the building of the earliest Christian catacombs started. Given that Roman Christianity evolved from Judaism, and Jews and Christians continued to interact until well into Late Antiquity, it is possible that Christian funerary practices were influenced by Jewish ones. This could explain the similarity between the oldest of the early Christian underground cemeteries and the Jewish Villa Torlonia catacomb, particularly considering that Callixtus, the deacon in charge of developing the Christian catacombs, came from the Jewish quarter. However, confirmation awaits radiocarbon dating of the Christian catacombs.

On behalf of one of the most respected peer-reviewed scientific journals in the world, I take exception to your comments. If you wanna play spot-the-mistake, Rutgers's email address is at the end of the paper; just let me know if you'd like to contact him.

Huon · 08-02-2005, 02:33 AM

From :
http://www.livescience.com/history/0..._catacomb.html
<quote>
The Roman Jewish community, which dates back to the first century BCE, would have likely chosen to bury rather than cremate their dead. The same would have been true for the early Christians. Perhaps because of a scarcity of land, these groups began excavating the soft volcanic rock, called tufa, outside the city walls.
"Tufa is fairly easy to work with, and it hardens once it's been exposed to the air," Rutgers told LiveScience in a telephone interview.
<endquote>

LiveScience speaks of a soft volcanic rock, called tufa.

I agree with Rutgers. And, yes, this has not much to do with jewish or christian catacombs.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-21-2005, 07:24 PM	#3
Wallener Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vancouver Posts: 1,043	I'm not clear what is supposed to be surprising here...that Jews had a significant presence in Rome long before the Christian era seems a given since Jews had already been twice-exiled from Rome before the Second Temple even came down.

07-22-2005, 12:38 AM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Here is a link to the full story in Nature: Death in Rome The full article requires a subscription or an institutional affiliation.

07-22-2005, 01:39 AM	#6
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	The so-called "soft volcanic rock" tufa is not volcanic at all. It is limestone, and indeed, hardens when exposed to air. Tufa is very common in France. This mistake could have been avoided in a paper which has scientific pretences.

08-02-2005, 02:33 AM	#10
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	From : http://www.livescience.com/history/0..._catacomb.html <quote> The Roman Jewish community, which dates back to the first century BCE, would have likely chosen to bury rather than cremate their dead. The same would have been true for the early Christians. Perhaps because of a scarcity of land, these groups began excavating the soft volcanic rock, called tufa, outside the city walls. "Tufa is fairly easy to work with, and it hardens once it's been exposed to the air," Rutgers told LiveScience in a telephone interview. <endquote> LiveScience speaks of a soft volcanic rock, called tufa. I agree with Rutgers. And, yes, this has not much to do with jewish or christian catacombs.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.