Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Lugubert · 01-05-2009, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

It's a harsh world. What do you expect from sin? Seems prudent to ask God for help.

Since I do not believe that the God of the Bible exists, will you please ask God to stop killing people and innocent animals with hurricanes? Do you recommend that amputees ask God for new limbs? Do you know of any cases where God has given an amputee a new limb? Do you know of any case where God has performed a miracle healing that probably would not have occured naturally?

Do you have any suggestions how people can try to verify the following claims:

1 - The God of the Bible created the heavens and the earth.

2 - A global flood occured.

3 - The Ten Plagues occured in Egypt.

4 - Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

5 - Jesus was born of a virgin.

6 - Jesus never sinned.

7 - Jesus' shed blood and death atoned for the sins of mankind.

In your opinion, does a person have to abandon the use of common sense, logic, and reason in order to try to verify the claims?

You're too generous, Johnny. Your points 4-7 presuppose that there really was somebody who even remotely resembled the character Yeshua Yosefson of the Gospels.

rhutchin · 01-06-2009, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lugubert

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Since I do not believe that the God of the Bible exists, will you please ask God to stop killing people and innocent animals with hurricanes? Do you recommend that amputees ask God for new limbs? Do you know of any cases where God has given an amputee a new limb? Do you know of any case where God has performed a miracle healing that probably would not have occured naturally?

Do you have any suggestions how people can try to verify the following claims:

1 - The God of the Bible created the heavens and the earth.

2 - A global flood occured.

3 - The Ten Plagues occured in Egypt.

4 - Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

5 - Jesus was born of a virgin.

6 - Jesus never sinned.

7 - Jesus' shed blood and death atoned for the sins of mankind.

In your opinion, does a person have to abandon the use of common sense, logic, and reason in order to try to verify the claims?

You're too generous, Johnny. Your points 4-7 presuppose that there really was somebody who even remotely resembled the character Yeshua Yosefson of the Gospels.

That is an excellent observation. The Bible presupposes that God exists when it begins with, "In the beginning, God..." From that point on, the story that unfolds presupposes that God exists and the events that occur are consistent with the existence of God. One may accept the Bible as verification in the sense that the writer is telling us the truth but this requires that the reader accept the presupposition of the writer that God does exist and the writer's attribution of supernaturally occurring events to God.

rhutchin · 01-06-2009, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lycanthrope

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

I am not sure what troubles you about this doctrine. Any chance that you have thought about it more and can elaborate?

Its just that how can we Christians say that we love people yet at the same time wish for the destruction of earth and its inhabitants? Its not possible to uphold the commandment "love thy neighbour" if we secretly wish that they will die so that we can have our "Blessed Hope"

So, you include yourself among "we Christians." Do you mean this as a cultural designation or a religious designation?

Regardless, I think you are correct. That person who calls himself a Christan would abide by God's laws and would have respect for God's property and maintain that property which God allows him to use freely. I agree that it is "Its not possible to uphold the commandment 'love thy neighbour' if we secretly wish that they will die so that we can have our 'Blessed Hope.'

Quote:

Originally Posted by lycanthrope

Another fact is that a future, a sustainable future for our children and our children's children cannot be secured if a sizeable population buy into a doctrine where our end, our destruction and death is a good thing and even celebrated. If a mushroom cloud replaced New York city, there will be a sizable population in the world that will see it as a joyous events and think it will herald the End of Days...clearly one can see there is no future with that kind of mindset

I don't see Christians being the ones to think this. It is always possible that immaturity among some Christians may lead to goofy behavior. However, the normal Christian is not focussed on that which happens to him or to the world but on that which happens to people relative to their standing before God. The concern of the Christian is always the salvation of the lost and this concern outweighs all other things.

SeekingKnowledge · 01-06-2009, 05:22 AM

Oh yeah Rhutchin? Tell that to the millions of bible thumperrs in the Midwest.. I actually witnessed a sermon here in Missouri about Obama being the Antichrist.. Utter rubbish, but the congregation loves their pastor, so you can bet they ate it up..

rhutchin · 01-06-2009, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen T-B

"If someone is willing to accept that it's ok to punish all humans for all time for the misdemeanour of just one, then why not the whole universe as well?" (spamandham)
Ah - the mysteries of Divine Justice! Ours is not to reason why; ours is to fall upon our knees and cry " In God we trust". (Even after we've seen many thousands of his devotees slain by natural disasters; even after we've seen many millions killed slowly and agonosingly by ghastly diseases, and even after we see droves of them in failed marriages, suffer mental illnesses and become senile.)

Actions have consequences. People can die at the hands of a drunk driver, a serial killer, or any number of purposeful or unintended actions of people and even catastrophes of nature. That people suffer from the misdemeanors of others is not new or unusual. Your complaint would be valid if God was not willing to help people and provide relief from the evil actions of others and from their own sin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen T-B

Meanwhile, rhutchin airily informs us that if we want God's help, we only have to ask for it for god to reach out his arm and deliver us from the evils of this world. (I wonder if he recalls telling us that so many people died and suffered in New Orleans when Katrina struck because they probably weren't Christians - and presumably would not have asked for God's help?)

That people fail to ask God for help accounts for much distress among many people.

rhutchin · 01-06-2009, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeekingKnowledge

Oh yeah Rhutchin? Tell that to the millions of bible thumperrs in the Midwest.. I actually witnessed a sermon here in Missouri about Obama being the Antichrist.. Utter rubbish, but the congregation loves their pastor, so you can bet they ate it up..

Sounds like rubbish to me also.

Too much Bible thumping and not enough Bible reading.

rhutchin · 01-06-2009, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Do you have more to offer than personal opinions?

Are you saying that your claim that a global flood occurred is not a personal opinion?

It is clearly taught in the Bible.

rhutchin · 01-06-2009, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

It's a harsh world. What do you expect from sin? Seems prudent to ask God for help.

Since I do not believe that the God of the Bible exists, will you please ask God to stop killing people and innocent animals with hurricanes?

Why not let people ask for themselves? If they want God's help, they ask; if they don't want God's help, they don't ask. If they don't believe in God, they don't ask anything of Him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Do you recommend that amputees ask God for new limbs?

They should ask God for help before they become amputees. People are subject to the consequences of their actions and the actions of others. Given peoples' inability to control all that happens, it behooves them to ask for God's help since He can control all that happens. It does no good to cry over spilt milk. The crying should be done before the milk is spilled.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Do you know of any cases where God has given an amputee a new limb?

This, sort of.

And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that [Jesus] entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered...[Jesus] said unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he did so: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Do you know of any case where God has performed a miracle healing that probably would not have occurred naturally?

Raising Lazarus from the dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Do you have any suggestions how people can try to verify the following claims:

1 - The God of the Bible created the heavens and the earth.

2 - A global flood occured.

3 - The Ten Plagues occured in Egypt.

4 - Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

5 - Jesus was born of a virgin.

6 - Jesus never sinned.

7 - Jesus' shed blood and death atoned for the sins of mankind.

You mean other than that verification provided by the Bible? Many historical events are one time events and cannot be verified in a laboratory setting through multiple experiments. One can only rely on the accounts of witnesses to those events, as included in the Bible, for their verification.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

In your opinion, does a person have to abandon the use of common sense, logic, and reason in order to try to verify the claims?

Nope.

rhutchin · 01-06-2009, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Who do you think created homosexuality in hundreds of species of animals and birds, including in possibly 100% of primate species?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

One of the consequences of sin.

Are you saying that God was angry with humans, so he decided to create homosexuality in hundreds of species of birds and animals in order to punish humans?

Only that God allowed sin to run its course. God merely created the sex drive. Sin corrupted it.

lycanthrope · 01-06-2009, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

So, you include yourself among "we Christians." Do you mean this as a cultural designation or a religious designation?

I am not sure what you mean by 'cultural or religious designation', maybe you can expand on that. When I used the term "we Christians", I used it specifically to mean those protestant churches like mine which follows Rapture doctrine. I am using it narrowly to mean a specific group in Christianity

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01-06-2009, 05:22 AM	#184
SeekingKnowledge Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Small Town, Missouri Posts: 200	Oh yeah Rhutchin? Tell that to the millions of bible thumperrs in the Midwest.. I actually witnessed a sermon here in Missouri about Obama being the Antichrist.. Utter rubbish, but the congregation loves their pastor, so you can bet they ate it up..

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