Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sugarhitman · 12-31-2008, 06:55 AM

The debate continues. While skeptics were continuing to accuse God of giving Jews the right to kill their slaves with little or no punishment, an interesting truth came to light. The people of Gibeon who were to be displaced tricked Israel into making a covenant with them, and without consulting God Israel made them "bondmen." Saul, the first king of Israel murdered some of these people that produced a famine against Israel (yeah judgement for killing non hebrew slaves) "And the Lord answered, 'It is for Saul and his bloody house (family members who took part in this) because he killed the Gibeonites." Not only did God punished Israel (for letting this deed go unpunished) but he also gave those members of Saul's family who were responsible for this act OVER TO NON HEBREW BONDMEN FOR JUDGEMENT.

This right here clearly, without a doubt, shows God does not allow for the murder, intentional killing of non hebrew slaves. Now ive found in the scriptures that backs my argument.....can critics do likewise? No. I bet you that.

WVIncagold · 12-31-2008, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Apparently it also says "servants' - as I just demonstrated.

No, I just quoted the law above. It says "servants". You're wrong again.

Who cares. It has nothing to do with the topic, and I'm not going to let you drag us down another of your rat holes.

Still waiting - got any courage yet?

if slavery was immoral, then why was slavery even permitted in the first place?

Don't be dishonest now because all I have to do is refer readers to the online JPS Jewish bible that says "bondmen" instead of servants. You are quoting from the KJV and not the Hebrew bible.

And I already responded to your question which you failed to qoute.

Anyone else notice the total lack of adressing the great big bolded print? duck weave parry thrust redirect. Good int he boxing ring bad for debate especially since it has been asked ad nauseum to both shtman and arnaldo and steve.

Johnny Skeptic · 12-31-2008, 07:29 AM

Message to sugarhitman: If Judaism was fine, what need was there for Jesus after thousands of years of Judaism?

I assume that Jews understand the Old Testament much better than Christians do. For instance, Jews are well aware that Isaiah 53 does not refer to Jesus.

Johnny Skeptic · 12-31-2008, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

This right here clearly, without a doubt, shows God does not allow for the murder, intentional killing of non-Hebrew slaves. Now I've found Scriptures that back my argument.......can critics do likewise? No. I bet you that.

There is no way that a loving God would make rules to protect non-Hebrew slaves but injure and kill them himself by various means.

Now why do you suppose that God made rules to protect slaves? Since he sometimes injured and killed them, it couldn't have been because he was concerned with their health and safety.

sugarhitman · 12-31-2008, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exciter

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

going to war against Hitler was immoral?

War is immoral, period. If you can't see that then, I don't think there's very much that can be done or shown to you that it's immoral.

No. Some threats to self are pretty much unavoidable.

No you don't see or else you'd see that it was immoral , that's my problem with OT law.

Why? You are the one who brought it up. I asked for something that won't say because the Bible says so, lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

They were one of about 1000 examples that I selected.

Doesn't really matter who's website it is. If they say that the remains are from child sacrifice because the Bible says so, it is not evidence, lol, do you not realize that you are discussing this with atheist, skeptics and other people who are not part of your congregation?

Now this is funny. God's judgement against Sodom is seen as immoral, but what would happen if Sodom became a world power legalizing forceful sodomy against weaker nations? God sought to destroy the Canaanites who had mingled themselves with the brutal tyrranical Nephilim. What if these people had become a world power legalizing human sacrifices and other savage practices against weaker nations. I guarantee it every one of you would be crying out for a deliverer. If Germany, Japan, and those Islamic fascists had won the war you would be on your knees begging for their destruction. The world will find out during the rise of the Anti-Christ (yes, it will come....it is already taking form) that wars to check the aggression of evil is not only necessary.....but they will pray for it.

"Unjust wars are immoral....but wars to check evil are not."-----Unknown

a spoiled people can't see this.

WVIncagold · 12-31-2008, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exciter

Genesis 16 has a slave girl runaway after she is dealt with harshly.

An angel tells her to go back. Too bad she didn't make it to the next town, no one would be able to make her go back and she would have been treated better.

Also, good thing the angel didn't have he's way with her... anyone know what happens when an angel has sex with a human?

GIANTS!

your not talking about the nephilim are you those datardly human sacrificing, vamparic, sadistic rapists that shtmn warned us about are you?

WVIncagold · 12-31-2008, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Because it is immoral to treat a group of people harshly based upon their ethnicity.

Well, the Jews in Egypt were treated harshly solely based upon their ethnicity however this was not the case of the the tribes which inhabited the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Hivites, and the Jebusites. Rather, these tribes were brought under judgment for immorality in much the same way Israel was later sent into exile for disobedience numerouse times. Note Genesis 15:13-16

And what exactly were these tribes guilty of? Note Deuteronomy 12:29-31

Quote:

When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; 30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. 31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

Now, if you feel it's immoral to allow tribes to continue burning their children in fire to their pagans gods then perhaps you'll understand why these tribes were treated harshly. . .

Strange that their gods never found them immoral and told them to lay down and die. hmmm wonder why a roving band of people would suddenly find the people who owned the land they wanted as immoral.

WVIncagold · 12-31-2008, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

It is immoral to make the conquered people slaves and exploit them.

It is not the modern equivalent. You don't know what you're talking about.

Was it immoral to force the fruit of the labor of those countries to be taken as war reparations? easy question. Why is that you are so clear on what is immoral for a culture you cannot understand but so ambiguous as to what is immoral right in front of your face?

So your whole argument is the jewish god was no better than the other gods of that time? That is what you're arguing. So the laws of B'aal are just as holy as the ones of your stolen jewish yhwh? Not a very stable mound of earth your standing on. Sio basically the bible only reflects the cultures it was written in and should have no precendence on todays world as it only can be understood in the context of a primative society which we have long since outgrown. So from you assertion we can gleam
The bible is not the word of god but the storys of men written in that time
The bible god is no more moral than the paganistic gods of the other lands in and around isreal.
Slavery is okay and was a very nice condition even though there were such things as apprenticeships and other means one could earn a living as a free man, notice man, women were considered all through the bible as property with no rights. only men coyuld be free and if slavery was so much better why then was there anything about ESCAPED slaves? If one entered into a bond servant would not one want to pay back their debts to be free once more?

sugarhitman · 12-31-2008, 08:28 AM

Can any critic explain this too me. The gibeonites were non hebrew slaves. So why is it that when Saul killed some of them God punished Israel and the house of Saul? If hebrew slaves by Israeli Law could be killed and abused then why did God judged them?

If you can't find a story to support your interpretation of Israeli or God's laws that supports abuse, and murder of non Hebrew slaves then you need to stop yapping, because you don't have a case.

WVIncagold · 12-31-2008, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Why can't we compare this culture with other cultures on the subject of slavery?

code of Ur-Namma

If a slave escapes from the city limits, and someone returns him, the owner shall pay two shekels to the one who returned him.

code of Haamurabi

If any one find runaway male or female slaves in the open country and bring them to their masters, the master of the slaves shall pay him two shekels of silver.

code of Hittites

If a slave set a house ablaze, his master shall compensate for him. The nose of the slave and his ears they shall cut off, and give him back to his master. But if he do not compensate, then he shall give up this one.

compare these with the runaway slave laws of the OT.

There really is no comparison, the Mosaic laws were by far more lenient in the treatment of slaves than the other ancient middle eastern laws.

again lube anyone?

:banghead:

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12-31-2008, 06:55 AM	#631
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	The debate continues. While skeptics were continuing to accuse God of giving Jews the right to kill their slaves with little or no punishment, an interesting truth came to light. The people of Gibeon who were to be displaced tricked Israel into making a covenant with them, and without consulting God Israel made them "bondmen." Saul, the first king of Israel murdered some of these people that produced a famine against Israel (yeah judgement for killing non hebrew slaves) "And the Lord answered, 'It is for Saul and his bloody house (family members who took part in this) because he killed the Gibeonites." Not only did God punished Israel (for letting this deed go unpunished) but he also gave those members of Saul's family who were responsible for this act OVER TO NON HEBREW BONDMEN FOR JUDGEMENT. This right here clearly, without a doubt, shows God does not allow for the murder, intentional killing of non hebrew slaves. Now ive found in the scriptures that backs my argument.....can critics do likewise? No. I bet you that.

12-31-2008, 07:29 AM	#633
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to sugarhitman: If Judaism was fine, what need was there for Jesus after thousands of years of Judaism? I assume that Jews understand the Old Testament much better than Christians do. For instance, Jews are well aware that Isaiah 53 does not refer to Jesus.

12-31-2008, 08:28 AM	#639
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	Can any critic explain this too me. The gibeonites were non hebrew slaves. So why is it that when Saul killed some of them God punished Israel and the house of Saul? If hebrew slaves by Israeli Law could be killed and abused then why did God judged them? If you can't find a story to support your interpretation of Israeli or God's laws that supports abuse, and murder of non Hebrew slaves then you need to stop yapping, because you don't have a case.

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