Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Viti · 03-30-2006, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Shouldn't I listen to Jesus Himself?

I have asked many of my Christian friends why they don't base their entire faith around ONLY Jesus' words (as attributed to him in the Gospels) and not Paul's or anyone else's. They never have an answer.

Why don't you "listen" to what Jesus said and only what he said?

David B · 03-30-2006, 11:11 AM

Perhaps another thing to remember, Half Life, is that supernatural claims come from all sorts of sources, and are widely believed, despite many of them being contradictory (words of the Koran appearing supernaturally in pomegranites or whatever, images of the virgin appearing in shadows, hindu images drinking milk) or as the result of fraud or error (Sylvia browne and John Edwards, Sai Baba, Benny Hinn.....) and none have passed critical scrutiny.

Prophesies turn out to be so vague that anyone could have done them, or written after the fact, or self fulfilling, or just plain wrong - as in theseveral places in the bible where a natural reading of the words say that everything should have happened about 2000 years ago.

Remember that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, all supernatural claims are extraordinary, and so, in the absense of such rvidence, don't believe them.

Remember further that people's experiences are sometimes subject to schizophrenia, epilepsy, or the power of suggestion - as I know to my cost when I was led into a cult for several years.

Superstition is really not a good idea.

David B

michael wellenberg · 03-30-2006, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

I am now at the crossroads of my life. I seriously am questioning the faith of Christianity when I think about this.

Do you seriously expect to get support for belief in a discussion with atheists ??

Quote:

I could not find anywhere in the Gospels or NT that says we must get to Heaven WHEN WE DIE! It has been taken for granted that when we die we go to Heaven or Hell but this is not mentioned until revelation. In the Gospels and the OT there was no mention of Heaven or Hell when we die. Jesus talks of establishing the kingdom on earth and doesn't say to anyone, "Ye must wait till ye die." He says no such thing.

I wonder have we all been fooled or am I missing something here?!?!?! Why should I take Revelation seriously when that book barely made into the Bible? Shouldn't I listen to Jesus Himself?

No Christian is supposed to get everything that is relevant out of the NT.

All the best
Michael

Sven · 03-30-2006, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michael wellenberg

Do you seriously expect to get support for belief in a discussion with atheists ??

Why do you think he is looking for support?

Support can be easily obtained elsewhere. What he's obviously after is the view and the arguments of "the other side".

Lixma · 03-30-2006, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Shouldn't I listen to Jesus Himself?

If you don't mind giving all your stuff away...etc...etc.

Barefoot Bree · 03-30-2006, 02:43 PM

Half-life: what people believe today and what is actually written in the bible are two entirely different things. All the various churches have had two thousand years to add, subtract, "interpret", change, lie, manipulate, etc - all with the best intentions, of course - their messages to the masses.

Most of what is taught in Sunday sermons and classes is dogma - catechisms, creeds, and pontifical, er, pontifications - that have been built up over the centuries on top of the Holy Writ. If you go back to basics, you'll find a very different picture indeed, as you have discovered about heaven.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Religion - all religions, even Christianity - have evolved as mankind has evolved. Do you want to listen to the message of today or the message from 2000 years ago?

Half-Life · 03-30-2006, 05:46 PM

Now Jesus did make some interesting predictions. Think about what He said.

he said there will be many wars fought. He was right. How did Jesus know this at this time?

He also said many will come in HIS NAME and try to DECEIVE MANY. Koresh anyone?

How did Jesus both of these things? These are not vague either. You COULD make an argument for the war one being vague but think of the time period he said this in.

RUmike · 03-30-2006, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

You COULD make an argument for the war one being vague but think of the time period he said this in.

Yes, the period was full of wars! Just as the world is today. Come on, if I say "there will be wars", which there obviously will be, am I a prophet suddenly?

cjack · 03-30-2006, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Now Jesus did make some interesting predictions. Think about what He said.

he said there will be many wars fought. He was right. How did Jesus know this at this time?

He also said many will come in HIS NAME and try to DECEIVE MANY. Koresh anyone?

How did Jesus both of these things? These are not vague either. You COULD make an argument for the war one being vague but think of the time period he said this in.

I don't know if you've studied any of the "time period he said this in," but Rome was almost constantly fighting some war somewhere before, during, and after the time Jesus was reported to have been alive.

And it doesn't exactly take a genius to figure out that a lot of folks will try to cash in on a religion. There were hucksters, false prophets, and scam artists aplenty during that time as well, and predicting that the trend would continue isn't what I'd label as either "interesting" or a "prediction."

Imaginary Mark · 03-30-2006, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I. C. Unicorns

I am not sure Ecclesiastes is saying what you intend it to (that humans don't go to heaven), in fact the whole book reads like a rant by David's son dedicated to slacking off. So, I think it does not actually tell us what God's intent is for human souls (and I think is evidence than anyone who thinks the bible is the word of God is full of HORSESHIT)

I'm not saying that. I think what it says here is pretty plain:

Who knows what happens when we die? (agnostic position) One thing's for sure, though: we're all worm food in the end.

I just thought it was kind of cute that there's this verse in the Bible that's not that different from how I, an atheist, feel. I think there very probably is no life after death but nobody knows for sure whether there is and what it would be like if there was. The important thing is how you live your life in the here and now.

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03-30-2006, 11:11 AM	#12
David B Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Wales Posts: 11,620	Perhaps another thing to remember, Half Life, is that supernatural claims come from all sorts of sources, and are widely believed, despite many of them being contradictory (words of the Koran appearing supernaturally in pomegranites or whatever, images of the virgin appearing in shadows, hindu images drinking milk) or as the result of fraud or error (Sylvia browne and John Edwards, Sai Baba, Benny Hinn.....) and none have passed critical scrutiny. Prophesies turn out to be so vague that anyone could have done them, or written after the fact, or self fulfilling, or just plain wrong - as in theseveral places in the bible where a natural reading of the words say that everything should have happened about 2000 years ago. Remember that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, all supernatural claims are extraordinary, and so, in the absense of such rvidence, don't believe them. Remember further that people's experiences are sometimes subject to schizophrenia, epilepsy, or the power of suggestion - as I know to my cost when I was led into a cult for several years. Superstition is really not a good idea. David B

03-30-2006, 02:43 PM	#16
Barefoot Bree Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: East of ginger trees Posts: 12,637	Half-life: what people believe today and what is actually written in the bible are two entirely different things. All the various churches have had two thousand years to add, subtract, "interpret", change, lie, manipulate, etc - all with the best intentions, of course - their messages to the masses. Most of what is taught in Sunday sermons and classes is dogma - catechisms, creeds, and pontifical, er, pontifications - that have been built up over the centuries on top of the Holy Writ. If you go back to basics, you'll find a very different picture indeed, as you have discovered about heaven. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Religion - all religions, even Christianity - have evolved as mankind has evolved. Do you want to listen to the message of today or the message from 2000 years ago?

03-30-2006, 05:46 PM	#17
Half-Life Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: A place in the Northern Hemisphere of Planet Earth Posts: 1,250	Now Jesus did make some interesting predictions. Think about what He said. he said there will be many wars fought. He was right. How did Jesus know this at this time? He also said many will come in HIS NAME and try to DECEIVE MANY. Koresh anyone? How did Jesus both of these things? These are not vague either. You COULD make an argument for the war one being vague but think of the time period he said this in.

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