Half-Life

I am now at the crossroads of my life. I seriously am questioning the faith of Christianity when I think about this.

I could not find anywhere in the Gospels or NT that says we must get to Heaven WHEN WE DIE! It has been taken for granted that when we die we go to Heaven or Hell but this is not mentioned until revelation. In the Gospels and the OT there was no mention of Heaven or Hell when we die. Jesus talks of establishing the kingdom on earth and doesn't say to anyone, "Ye must wait till ye die." He says no such thing.

I wonder have we all been fooled or am I missing something here?!?!?! Why should I take Revelation seriously when that book barely made into the Bible? Shouldn't I listen to Jesus Himself?

Also, I'd like to make the argument for all you atheists out there who wonder what "this generation shall not pass" means. Jesus did not fail here. He was simply talking about his resurrection, not the second coming. He said, "there will be some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming." Jesus was right. The disciples did not die and they saw him come back from the dead.

I hope everyone really ponders what I have written and gets back to me.

judge

I don't even think jesus said that

nygreenguy

Perhaps because "heaven" isnt supposed to be where you go when you die. Ever thought your place was here on earth? I believe the bible says we will live here on the "new earth" Heaven is a place reserved for spiritual creatures, humans are purely physical. Heaven is no place for us. It is reserved for God, Jesus, the angels, and the 144,000

why did revelation "barely" make it into the bible? If the books of the bible are inspired by God, who determines what was inspired, and what was not? If im not mistaken, many books have been dropped. Imagine what god would think if humans dropped books inspired by him?

Doug Shaver

Good. Whether you eventually change your mind or not, serious questioning is good. Very good.

Nice catch. Keep up the good work.

You're not missing anything. For nearly 2,000 years, Christians have been reading stuff in the Bible between the lines.

That's a good question, but there is another you should ask yourself first. It is: Why should I believe that Jesus actually said anything that the gospel authors claimed he said?

Imaginary Mark

What he said.

I. C. Unicorns

I am not sure Ecclesiastes is saying what you intend it to (that humans don't go to heaven), in fact the whole book reads like a rant by David's son dedicated to slacking off. So, I think it does not actually tell us what God's intent is for human souls (and I think is evidence than anyone who thinks the bible is the word of God is full of HORSESHIT)

Sven

There are two separate issues in your OP, one (the question about Jesus saying nothing about Heaven/Hell when we die) was already addressed by others. Now on to the second part:

Unfortunately, this interpretation is very difficult to hold up. Consider the context (KJV) [emphasis mine]:

Matthew 24
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

[...]

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
[...]
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
[...]
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

[...]

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Since none of these things happened at the time of the resurrection, your interpretation is - at best - shaky.

Hallandale

The Promise of Heaven Fills the Pews.
But I agree with you. There really is no clear cut verse in the Bible which promises people that they will go to Heaven.
Part of the confusion is caused by the Gospel according to Matthew. In Matthew's Gospel, Jesus refers to "the Kingdom of Heaven" about 30 times.
This phrase, "the Kingdom of Heaven" is not found anywhere else in the Bible except in Matthew. In Mark and Luke, Jesus always uses the phrase "the Kingdom of God." As you compare the synoptic Gospels it becomes evident that Matthew's use of "the Kingdom of Heaven," is a euphemism for "the Kingdom of God" probably defering to the Jewish custom of not writing "God."
Many Christians look at Matthew's "the Kingdom of Heaven" stories and fail to realize that they are really "Kingdom of God" stories and are not promises of a future in Heaven.

God promised that the righteous would live on earth....Psalm 37:9-11
9For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

10For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

11But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

God promised Abraham the land of Canaan....Genesis 17:8
And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

God promised Abraham and his descendants the world..Romans 4:13
13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith

Jesus' followers will get a share in Abraham's inheritance..Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

But Abraham never received the inheritance Acts7:5
And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

So when will Abraham and his offspring including the followers of Jesus get the inheritance of the earth? ....Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth

The going to Heaven senario is what draws people in and fills the pews but it really is unbiblical. The promise has always been for the "promised land" the earth.

Nick Hallandale
enterprisestrategy@earthlink.net

The Bishop

The faithful go to heaven - but only after Jesus comes back, of course. But the assumption is made, and tacitly supported by the various Churches though with no real support, that there is a "realm of the dead" where all the people who have died are existing right now, called "heaven" (or sometimes Hell, like Phoebe Buffay's grandmother). People constantly reassure themselves with what they believe they are being told by religion, when in fact ones dead relatives being in heaven now, looking down on us, etc - is nothing more than "folk theology".

The Catholic Church, for instance, I think does not believe that people go to heaven (prior to the second coming, of course) unless they are canonised. Nonetheless, the not-yet-elevated Cardinal Ratzinger spoke at Pope John Paul II's funeral about the late pontiff "looking down on us from a window in God's house", thus bolstering the view of a current heaven or presupposing Jay Pee Two's inevitable elevation to sainthood. In either case, as one of the most learned catholic theologians in the church (certainly in the Cardinalate), he most certainly knew better.

Ancient Jewish beliefs certainly did not entail eternal life, nor any promise of a trip to heaven upon ones death, and as far as I know official Judaistic thought maintains the same line today, but I could be wrong. And any number of Jews undoubtedly share the same misinformed Christian view about going to heaven upon death.

Sven

Just recently, I tried to get this point across to a Christian (starting here). The following did not even deserve to be called a discussion. Pathetic.

BTW, welcome to IIDB, Bishop! :wave: