sweetpea7

What is the biblical definition of an innocent or godly nation versus a wicked nation? Has an innocent nation ever existed? Is that even possible? Surely, a just and merciful God would clearly delineate the parameters of innocent vs. wicked so that people could choose to remain in the innocent column and avoid "deserved" destruction.

DCHindley

I guess that depends who you asked.

In the intertestamental literature (1 Enoch, Jubilees, 4 Ezra, 2 Baruch, Sibylline Oracles, Josephus, Philo, DSS, etc) you get all sorts of different answers. Some Jews thought gentiles were alright as long as they respected the Jewish God, others thought they were all godless heathen and deserving to be exterminated. Of course, there were all sorts of positions one could take in between these extremes. It depended on things like where the Jew was located (i.e., in the holy land or outside of it), or whether they lived among gentiles or not (even in the holy land, there were more gentiles living there than most realize). Josephus gives us the account of one Jew who counseled a gentile "god-fearer" (in this case, one of the princes of the Parthian client kingdom of Adiabene) to revere and worship the God of the Jews without needing to convert, and how another Jew came along and convinced the prince (and also his mother and brother) that the only proper way to *really* worship the God of the Jews was to become circumcised and fully convert. FWIW, this prince's mother made a Nazirite vow, built a palace in Jerusalem, moved there, and gave many costly gifts to the temple, and her grandsons were principal men among the rebels of the war of 66-70 CE.

Even among those who thought gentiles were OK in their own way, as long as they lived in their own far-away lands of course, might think differently if gentiles wanted to live in the holy land. Josephus also recounts how during that war some Jews in Galilee, even among those who did not fully sympathize with the rebels, wanted to force gentiles who sought refuge among them to circumcise themselves to continue to receive that refuge, while others said "no, that would be excessive on our part."

DCH

sweetpea7

This is the point I was trying to make. I also asked this question in the context of some posters here repeatedly talking about an "innocent nation", but refusing to clarify what that term means. If there is no clear answer, then how could one call it justice for God to destroy nations for not living up to the innocence standard? :constern01:

mountainman

Dear sweetpea7,

Such may be simply the political assertion by the victors, who can describe their victory over nation X in any way they please.

Best wishes,


Pete

aa5874

Acts of genocide are sometimes done using the name of God. If masses of people were murdered it is almost certain that it was not a God that killed them.

Sheshbazzar

And just whom would qualify to determine any nations innocence or guilt?
Should men submit themseves to judgement by the imaginary god of the Jews?
One such as endorsed the theft of other peoples property, slavery, and the wholesale murder of innocent children?
Would that a just and righteouss did God exist, to deliver us out of the hands of such a vile god as that of the Hebrews.

sweetpea7

Seconded.

TheRealityOfMan

Maybe that's why Jesus was invented.