Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Casper · 01-24-2009, 07:29 PM

I still say you are all making too much out of the 29 1/2 day synodic month and not realizing the importance, or perhaps the convenience, of the sidereal month, which is 27 1/3 days.

This alleged fretting about the significance of a new moon introducing a fear that the moon would somehow not reappear is similar to saying that sunset would introduce a similar fear of the sun never coming back.

And in the synodic month, what is there to compare? The phases of a moon which are about as cyclical as the phases of sunlight over the course of short observation. That is about it. There is no real predictive power in correlating the moon phases with sunrise or sunset.

But an ancient astronomer (astrologer if you prefer) would have a wonderful background lattice to note positions not only of the moon but of the planets when visible, and could even extrapolate the position of the sun easily. I'm talking about the stars in the sky. The night sky that also shows the planets, the comets, all on a fairly stable background for reference.

After all, the complex math of the Mayan calender wheels was developed around sidereal, not synodic events. The famous "2012 doomsday" meme is a shining example.

andrewcriddle · 01-26-2009, 01:44 PM

This is a clear and reasonably accurate description (ignore the bits about Mithras) of the astrological week

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle · 01-26-2009, 02:16 PM

http://knp.prs.heacademy.ac.uk/essen...ialdivination/

Quote:

The gods, it seems, were continually sending messages of approval or disapproval to the Assyrian king. Fully half the surviving corpus of royal scholarly correspondence concerns ominous events observed in the sky or on the earth. Astrologers TT stationed in a dozen different Assyrian and Babylonian cities simultaneously "kept the watch of the king". How did they record and analyse this steady flow of data? And how did the king select and construct meaning from this often contradictory stream of information, in order to make effective political decisions that had divine support?
Signs from the sky

The celestial omen series Enuma Anu Enlil was divided into four large sections, governed by the moongod Sin (lunar events), the sungod Šamaš (solar events), the weathergod Adad (atmospheric phenomena), and Ištar/Venus (movements of the five visible planets). Here the Assyrian king wears a protective necklace showing the symbols of Sin, Šamaš, Aššur or Adad (?), and Ištar. Detail from the stone decoration of Assurnasirpal II's northwest palace in Nimrud, c.860 BC (room B, panel 23; BM ANE 124531). Photo by Eleanor Robson. View large image.

As the moon and planets TT traverse the night sky against the slower-moving background of the stars, they appear to cluster and disperse in an intricate dance of approach and retreat. In the city of Babylon PGP , a systematic celestial TT observation programme had begun in the mid-8th century BC that would eventually decode the complex patterns of long-term periodicities that underlie these apparently random conjunctions TT , retrogrades TT , and oppositions TT . But for the scholars of the seventh-century Assyrian royal court it was not yet possible to make confident predictions of anything but imminent celestial events. The gods, it appeared, inscribed their intentions for the world on the night sky by directing the nocturnal movements of the heavenly bodies towards particular timings and configurations that could be read and interpreted just like cuneiform writing or the entrails of a sacrificed ram.

Just as the planets were in some senses "counterparts" to the great gods, so the night sky presented an oblique view of the gods' Tablet of Destinies, made of sparkling, deep blue lapis lazuli TT , on which they planned the fate of the world.

The Assyrian scholars have left no clues as to how they made their observations, except that beyond the royal court in Nineveh PGP they worked in groups of ten.

http://knp.prs.heacademy.ac.uk/essen...ntationritual/

Have a read of this site. Where did the Jews get their rituals from?

Anat · 01-26-2009, 06:24 PM

Quote:

I still say you are all making too much out of the 29 1/2 day synodic month and not realizing the importance, or perhaps the convenience, of the sidereal month, which is 27 1/3 days.

Gamaliel of Jamniya is reported to have known the length of the synodic month to the 1/18 of a minute, if I rememnber correctly. The Jewish lunar calendar as used at least since the Persian period is synodic. (Halakha required witness observation of the new moon, but Gamaliel used his precalculated synodic month to disqualify witnesses who reported contradictory observations. He had some heated disagreements with Rabbi Yehoshua on calendar-related issues.)

semiopen · 01-26-2009, 06:54 PM

I've been curious about the Jewish fast day of Tisha B'Av (9th of Av).

This commemorates the destruction of the first and second temples and is also supposed to be have been bad historically.

It is claimed that World War I started on this day, but that is Germany's declaration of war on Russia, so that is arguable.

Two other dates are July 18th 1290 which is the date of the expulsion of the Jew's from England, and the expulsion of the Jew's from Spain in 1492.

I've been trying to check if these events happenned on the 9th of Av. This is complicated by the Gregorian Calendar not being in place until later.

The Expulsion from Spain is described here -

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewis...ws-spain1.html

Quote:

The King gave them three months' time in which to leave. It ,was announced in public in every city on the first of May, which happened to be the 19th day of the Omer, and the term ended on the day before the 9th of Ab. [The forty-nine days between the second of Passover and Shabuot are called Omer days. The actual decree of expulsion was signed March 31 and announced the first of May, the 19th day of the Omer. The Jews were to leave during in May, June, and July and be out of the country by August I, the 8th of Ab.]

It's not clear to me why the 9th of Av is special here (the day after it was over).

The main question is, is the Jewish calendar then as accurate as the Gregorian, and also are medieval dates typically not adjusted.

Thanks for your insights.

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01-24-2009, 07:29 PM	#41
Casper Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 430	I still say you are all making too much out of the 29 1/2 day synodic month and not realizing the importance, or perhaps the convenience, of the sidereal month, which is 27 1/3 days. This alleged fretting about the significance of a new moon introducing a fear that the moon would somehow not reappear is similar to saying that sunset would introduce a similar fear of the sun never coming back. And in the synodic month, what is there to compare? The phases of a moon which are about as cyclical as the phases of sunlight over the course of short observation. That is about it. There is no real predictive power in correlating the moon phases with sunrise or sunset. But an ancient astronomer (astrologer if you prefer) would have a wonderful background lattice to note positions not only of the moon but of the planets when visible, and could even extrapolate the position of the sun easily. I'm talking about the stars in the sky. The night sky that also shows the planets, the comets, all on a fairly stable background for reference. After all, the complex math of the Mayan calender wheels was developed around sidereal, not synodic events. The famous "2012 doomsday" meme is a shining example.

01-26-2009, 01:44 PM	#42
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	This is a clear and reasonably accurate description (ignore the bits about Mithras) of the astrological week Andrew Criddle

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