Johnny Skeptic

How do you know that?

But why should I love God?

I need to know more about your beliefs. John 1:14 says “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” How do you interpret that verse?

Matthew 14:14 says “And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.” Do you believe that that was a literal event?

Do you base your beliefs on the Bible, personal revelations, or both?

Do you attend a church? If so, which denomination, if any?

No Robots

I have been a little peremptory on this. Spinoza actually says that God loves us as he loves all parts of himself. I often think of it like my own attitude toward, say, one of my skin cells.


Why should you love Nature? Carl Sagan used to talk about how the universe filled him with wonder. Spinoza is saying that when we truly pursue knowledge of Nature, we cannot help but love it.

An Alexandrian interpolation, a bit of unfortunate Hellenizing that, thank goodness, is dropped in the Prologue and never heard from again.

Yeah, I believe he had a profound effect on people's psychology, which in turn affects their physiology.

I have always had an inner sentiment that I never could have articulated without the assistance of the Bible.

No. I consider myself a Christian atheist. My guiding lights are Christ, Spinoza, and Constantin Brunner.

Atheist_Scathe

Argument from personal incredulity. Many of the stories in the bible, such as the creation, the flood, the Exodus, are unsupported and patently debunked by science. I can elaborate at some length if so requested.

Houston, come in Houston... no, it most certainly does NOT. Once again you fail to appreciate the semantics of my point: inclusiveness of ALL theistic beliefs as equally untrue, rather than merely singling out Christianity or Abrahamic religions as untrue. Yes, the bible DOES say that there is A deity- that's what I meant! Not DEITIES plural, but obviously your book isn't atheistic. What I meant was NO evidence for supernatural friend(s). I see no reason to dignify your belief system (which is monotheistic) over others.

N.B. I know, he's banned, but I don't like to leave arguments dangling.

Atheist_Scathe

Not that he didn't deserve it... what, exactly, was his damnable offense?

Amaleq13

He was a reincarnation of a previously banned member.

Johnny Skeptic

By what means did Spinoza determine that he was right? How can we corroborate his claims?

Please describe your love for God. Do you pray to him? If so, how do you believe that he responds to your prayers?

Which Scriptures are you talking about?

Please tell us what you believe about the life and origin of the man who was called Jesus.

The Christ in the Bible, or the Christ in your mind? How did you first learn about Christ?

No Robots

Spinoza is all about definitions. If you keep his definitions in mind, his conclusions are logically inescable. Let me attempt to summarize his definitions and conclusions on this particular point of the love of God and man:

God is Being itself.

Being is eternal.

The thought of the eternity of Being is pleasurable.

Pleasure accompanied by the idea of an external cause is love.

Being, as absolutely infinite, is accompanied by the idea of itself as its own cause and of its own eternity. Thus Being loves itself.

The love of man for the eternity of Being is exactly the same as the love of Being for itself. It follows that Being loves man as it loves itself.


As much as possible, I try to understand reality as "Infinite Idea". This idea of "Infinite Idea" fills me with pleasure, or love.


No. I try to reflect on the idea of reality as "Infinite Idea".

The Bible in toto provides me with the ability to express my longing to abide in the idea of reality as "Infinite Idea". Some passages are better than others for this, of course. I like, "As the deer pants for water, so my soul pants for you oh God" --Ps 42:1

He is the great genius of Jewish mysticism. He was undoubtedly born a bastard in humble circumstances. His strategy was to diffuse his meme through the humble people, the ammé haaretz.

I was always attracted by the person of Christ, but for the longest time I felt unable to see what he was really all about. When I read Brunner's book, everything came together.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to No Robots: If Spinoza had never heard of the Old Testament or the New Testament, what do you believe that his beliefs would have been? Is it your position that a person can know as much about reality with or without the Bible? Why should anyone accept Spinoza's definitions of God. Definitions can easily lead to a game of semantics. Definitions aside, is there a being who created the universe and humans who wishes to reveal himself to humans, and if so, has he made knowledge of his SPECIFIC existence and will easily accessible and understandable to everyone, or only to "enlightened" people like you, Spinoza, and Brunner?

No Robots

Christ, the original genius, provides us with the means to apprehend reality. As Spinoza puts it:

A man who can by pure intuition comprehend ideas which are neither contained in nor deducible from the foundations of our natural knowledge, must necessarily possess a mind far superior to those of his fellow men, nor do I believe that any have been so endowed save Christ.

Not all are equally drawn to the question of the ultimate nature of reality. In fact, the scholar of mysticism Rufus Jones posits that interest/disinterest in this question divides mankind into two distinct species. Brunner uses an analogy in which Christ is a magnet and the rest of us are metal filings of varying composition, responding either strongly or weakly to the magnetic force.

Wads4

So-called pure intuition is what leads to "truths" like "witches" should be put to death. Arm-chair theorising like this leads to abominable cruelties and superstitions, whereas what scientists have discovered by empirical evidence leads to enlightenment and liberty.