Freethought & Rationalism Archive

King of Men · 12-08-2005, 09:59 AM

How has this thread managed to go 7 pages, when it is clear that one side is not listenting to the other? "Do not argue with an idiot; he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

Mars Man · 12-08-2005, 05:48 PM

O.k. back with that great back-breaking research. (It cost me two beers to dig that out, you know...) The consensus here, for the moment, is that we would best claim moderately stable ground in avowing the conclusion that the Asahi Evening News is the source to be handed the title 'INFALLIBLE' as it tells us of a report from the La Civitta Cattolica in its Wed. Sept. 29, 1999 issue.

That write-up quotes the editorial of that magazine as saying that "[hell] is not a 'place' but a 'state', a person suffers from deprivation of God, [capitol 'G' theirs]." It also highlights, in implication, that Pope John Paul II had struck a similar note within days of the publication of that editorial by telling some pilgrams the church was selling discount tickets to Las Vagas, ...well, o.k., how about telling those wanderers that "...more than a physical place, hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God ['G' theirs], the source of all life and joy." (that's why we have things like sex, I guess....)

Anyway, Broussard san, (that Japanese title), I hope you weren't really serious with that request...then I'd have to go buy a car load of cases of Asahi Dry (supposedly Japan's no.1 seller [it's beer, just in case some don't know]) and would look to be about at eight months by the time I would have finished. (hee, hee, hee....) I wish I had that same compilation you wish you had. O.K. maybe some joint effort on our behalves, could produce such a book. I'll look into it seriously. :thumbs:

andrewcriddle · 12-08-2005, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

Which makes me wonder where, when and how was it decided that the pope can make infallible statements--and is there an infallible statement stating that the pope can make infallible statements.

See Vatican Council I 1870

Quote:

We [furthermore] teach and define that it is a dogma divinely revealed: that the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra, that is, when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor (i.e. teacher) of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith and morals to be held by the universal Church... is possessed of that infallibility with which the Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed for defining doctrine regarding faith and morals; and that therefore such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of themselves and not from the consent of the Church. But if anyone -- which may God avert-- presume to contradict this our definition: let him be anathema.

Andrew Criddle

John A. Broussard · 12-08-2005, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

Sorry John, I must have missed your post. No, you can believe whatever you want, but the deveil Believes in God - that was the point.

So you are saying the devil can't be in error.

Am I reading you correctly?

John A. Broussard · 12-08-2005, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

See Vatican Council I 1870

Andrew Criddle

Thanks, Andrew, but that isn't an infallible statement, as the Vatican Council's decree clearly indicates.

Do you have an infallible statement declaring that the pope can make an infallible statement?

I sure can't find one anywhere.

Also, I'm still looking for an official list (or description) of current Catholic dogma.

I appreciate your help. I've been looking without success for both of the above.

John A. Broussard · 12-08-2005, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mars Man

Anyway, Broussard san, (that Japanese title), I hope you weren't really serious with that request...then I'd have to go buy a car load of cases of Asahi Dry (supposedly Japan's no.1 seller [it's beer, just in case some don't know]) and would look to be about at eight months by the time I would have finished. (hee, hee, hee....) I wish I had that same compilation you wish you had. O.K. maybe some joint effort on our behalves, could produce such a book. I'll look into it seriously. :thumbs:

I used to be Broussard sensei.

Andrew Criddle's post is a promising one.

Maybe we're on the way to solving this profound mystery, though there'll be a lot of sake under the bridge before we get there.

John A. Broussard · 12-08-2005, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King of Men

How has this thread managed to go 7 pages, when it is clear that one side is not listenting to the other? "Do not argue with an idiot; he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

Shucks, you just have to take your fun where you can find it.

andrewcriddle · 12-08-2005, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

Thanks, Andrew, but that isn't an infallible statement, as the Vatican Council's decree clearly indicates.

Do you have an infallible statement declaring that the pope can make an infallible statement?

I sure can't find one anywhere.

IIUC the Vatican Council statement is an official decree of an ecumenical council backed up by an anathema.

According to RC teaching this makes it infallible.

(Before Vatican I it was clear RC teaching that a decree backed by a Pope plus ecumenical council was infallible. What Vatican I said was that the Pope alone can suffice and the addition of an ecumenical council is unnnecessary.)

Andrew Criddle

John A. Broussard · 12-08-2005, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

IIUC the Vatican Council statement is an official decree of an ecumenical council backed up by an anathema.

According to RC teaching this makes it infallible.

(Before Vatican I it was clear RC teaching that a decree backed by a Pope plus ecumenical council was infallible. What Vatican I said was that the Pope alone can suffice and the addition of an ecumenical council is unnnecessary.)

Thanks for the follow-up.

Can you give me the source for "According to RC teaching this makes it infallible."

Many thanks.

Mars Man · 12-08-2005, 11:28 PM

Ok, gotta run do some classes, sensei, so I may be out for the weekend, but, I'll be back. (Should I go buy a couple of two liter bottles of the best squeesed rice juice in Japan? Or do we still have some hope on getting that book worked up?:rolling: )

I'll catch all you find folk after the weekend--if not during. !! Keep up the good work,and as sensei said, the fun !! :wave:

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12-08-2005, 09:59 AM	#171
King of Men Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: SF Bay Area, CA Posts: 430	How has this thread managed to go 7 pages, when it is clear that one side is not listenting to the other? "Do not argue with an idiot; he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

12-08-2005, 05:48 PM	#172
Mars Man Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Aida, Matsumoto, Japan Posts: 129	O.k. back with that great back-breaking research. (It cost me two beers to dig that out, you know...) The consensus here, for the moment, is that we would best claim moderately stable ground in avowing the conclusion that the Asahi Evening News is the source to be handed the title 'INFALLIBLE' as it tells us of a report from the La Civitta Cattolica in its Wed. Sept. 29, 1999 issue. That write-up quotes the editorial of that magazine as saying that "[hell] is not a 'place' but a 'state', a person suffers from deprivation of God, [capitol 'G' theirs]." It also highlights, in implication, that Pope John Paul II had struck a similar note within days of the publication of that editorial by telling some pilgrams the church was selling discount tickets to Las Vagas, ...well, o.k., how about telling those wanderers that "...more than a physical place, hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God ['G' theirs], the source of all life and joy." (that's why we have things like sex, I guess....) Anyway, Broussard san, (that Japanese title), I hope you weren't really serious with that request...then I'd have to go buy a car load of cases of Asahi Dry (supposedly Japan's no.1 seller [it's beer, just in case some don't know]) and would look to be about at eight months by the time I would have finished. (hee, hee, hee....) I wish I had that same compilation you wish you had. O.K. maybe some joint effort on our behalves, could produce such a book. I'll look into it seriously. :thumbs:

12-08-2005, 11:28 PM	#180
Mars Man Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Aida, Matsumoto, Japan Posts: 129	Ok, gotta run do some classes, sensei, so I may be out for the weekend, but, I'll be back. (Should I go buy a couple of two liter bottles of the best squeesed rice juice in Japan? Or do we still have some hope on getting that book worked up?:rolling: ) I'll catch all you find folk after the weekend--if not during. !! Keep up the good work,and as sensei said, the fun !! :wave:

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