Freethought & Rationalism Archive

scigirl · 12-21-2003, 02:38 PM

I'm writing a letter to the editor about the f**&&#%@& gay marriage ban, and I wanted to make the following statements in that letter:

1) The mainstream Jewish faith is not as condemning of homosexuals as the Christian religion is, despite having the same old testament.

2) Jesus never condemned homosexuality or even mentioned it in the 4 gospels.

Are these true statements? Any help would be appreciated. Perhaps I'll post a draft of my letter here later. Basically here will be the gist of it:

The first part will be describing why the Bible is not a good source for modern marriage laws. Then I"ll list some examples of horrible marriages in the OT like Deut 22 ordering rapists to marry their victims.

The second part will be more general - saying that 1) Jesus himself in the 4 gospels didn't devote any time to the issue and 2) Jews who only have the OT don't either.

Thanks a bunch for all your help!!

scigirl

Toto · 12-22-2003, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by scigirl
I'm writing a letter to the editor about the f**&&#%@& gay marriage ban, and I wanted to make the following statements in that letter:

1) The mainstream Jewish faith is not as condemning of homosexuals as the Christian religion is, despite having the same old testament.

Conservative Jews are as opposed to homosexuality as conservative Christians, as far as I know. But most mainstream Jews, even religious Jews, do not interpret their scriptures as literally and rigidly as conservative Christians.

Quote:

2) Jesus never condemned homosexuality or even mentioned it in the 4 gospels.

. . .

Jesus never condemned homosexuality, but he did explicity condemn divorce. Yet most of the conservatives who oppose gay marriage accept divorce on demand.

Quote:

Matthew 5:32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

Condemnation of divorce is one of the clearest commands in the New Testament, but the religious right has lost the battle on this and knows that it cannot propose restrictions on divorce without igniting a firestorm of opposition. (So much for the protection of marriage.)

There are two places in the letters of Paul that condemn homosexuality, both male homosexuality and lesbianism. However, it is not so much condemned as used as an example of "unnatural" behavior.

Quote:

Romans 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Paul is frothing at the mouth about something here, but it's not clear exactly what. I think that there are some Christian gay activists who interpret this as referring to temple prostitution or other pagan practices. And you notice that God has created these shameful lusts in men and women - so God is the source of homosexuality.

(I'll find other references tomorrow.)

Jackalope · 12-22-2003, 01:07 AM

Romans 1:21-23 describes breaking the ban on graven images. In other words, there are sculptures in the temple that are representational. He's most likely fulminating about pagan worshop of idols, though there is evidence of representational art even in the temple at Jerusalem.

So Paul is frothing at the mouth that because these folk worshipped idols (or put up statues for all we know), God gave them over to sinful desires as punishment.

scigirl · 12-22-2003, 12:15 PM

Thanks for the info guys!

scigirl

Doctor X · 12-22-2003, 12:59 PM

Do a search here, I posted a few times a long explanation from a JBL article that the Leviticus codes do not forbid homosexuality but a "position."

As it should be in the holiday season, it is better to give than receive. . . .

--J.D.

Toto · 12-22-2003, 02:18 PM

Found my notes

Homosexuality, Christianity, and "The Law"

1 Cor 6:9-11

Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites (arsenokoita), thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers� none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.�

Commentary on The meaning of arsenokoita:

Quote:

In this recent critical translation arsenokoitai is taken as a reference to those who practice homosexuality. Arsenokoitai poses a problem to the translator because this is its earliest known occurrence in Greek literature. Robin Scroggs has plausibly suggested that Paul created this new word by combining the two terms found in the Greek version of Lev 18:23 (LXX 18:22) and 20:13: arsen = �male,� and koite = �bed,� which translate the Hebrew for �lying with a male� (mishkav zakur; The New Testament and Homosexuality: Contextual Background for Contemporary Debate [Fortress, 1983] 106-8). With the likelihood that these Levitical prohibitions are echoed in 1 Cor 6:9, the NRSV is justified in translating the term as a reference to homoerotic intercourse, even if the English �sodomites� is somewhat archaic.

The most vociferous critic of taking arsenokoitai as a reference to homoerotic practice is the late, gay scholar J. Boswell (Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality [University of Chicago, 1980] 335-53). He concludes that arsenokoitai refers to male prostitutes without specifying the gender of their partners. Boswell�s theory has been popularized by the widely known work of gay Catholic J.J. McNeil, who confesses his dependence on Boswell even though his work appeared earlier (The Church and the Homosexual [Sheed, Andrews & McMeel, 1976] 200). Boswell�s broader thesis, the Bible does not justify the later homophobia that appealed to it, has not been challenged, but his lexicography has come under unfavorable review.

David F. Wright has devoted an article to demonstrating the inaccuracies of Boswell�s presentation of the data (�Homosexuals or Prostitutes? The Meaning of ARSENOKOITAI (1 Cor. 6:9; 1 Tim. 1:10),� Vigiliae Christianae 38 [1984] 125-53). Wright and Boswell engage in highly sophisticated and detailed lexicographical argumentation, which space prohibits re-presenting in this brief article. Wright�s most telling argument is that Boswell seriously underestimates the use of arsenokoitai in early Christian writers, and he is especially negligent in his highly selective and inaccurate use of the early, Greek-speaking bishop John Chrysostom. Wright points out how the very texts from Chrysostom cited by Boswell, when viewed in light of their surrounding texts, both undermine Boswell �s interpretation and support the traditional view that arsenokoitai refers to homosexuality.

Whoseoever An Online Magazine for Gay, Lesbain, Bisexual and Transgendered Christians

Quote:

Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13

Leviticus 18:22 states: "Thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination." The term abomination (to'ebah) is a religious term, usually reserved for use against idolatry; it does not mean a moral evil. The verse seems to refer to temple prostitution, which was a common practice in the rest of the Middle East at that time. Qadesh referred to male religious prostitutes. (See the discussion of Deuteronomy)
Leviticus 20:13 states: "If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they should surely be put to death....". The passage is surrounded by prohibitions against incest, bestiality, adultery and intercourse during a woman's period. But this verse is the only one in the series which uses the religious term abomination; it seems also to be directed against temple prostitution.

These passages are part of the Jewish Holiness Code which also:

permits polygamy
prohibits sexual intercourse when a woman has her period,
bans tattoos
prohibits eating rare meat
bans wearing clothes that are made from a blend of textiles
prohibits cross-breeding livestock
bans sowing a field with mixed seed
prohibits eating pigs, rabbits, or some forms of seafood
requires Saturday to be reserved as the Sabbath

Churches have abandoned the Holiness Code; it is no longer binding on modern-day Christians. They can wear tattoos, eat shrimp, wear polyester-cotton blends and engage in temple prostitution without violating this particular section of the Bible. Although this code is obsolete for Christians, many clergy still focus on those passages which deal with homosexuality.

Maybe more than you ever wanted to know:

Religioustolerance.org on homosexuality and scripture

A contrary view:

Bring Back the A-word (and argument for still considering homosexuality an Abomination, even though eating shellfish is not.)

boneyard bill · 12-22-2003, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites (arsenokoita), thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers� none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.�

I think in another passage he includes gossips and slanderers as well. And remember that divorce and remarriage is the same as adultery. So not much of the human race, including born-again Christians, has much chance of inheriting the kingdom if this passage is taken literally. But what happened to salvation by grace and not by works? I've never quite been able to figure out what Paul is trying to say, but it's a lot more complicated than the fundamentalists would have you believe.

12-21-2003, 02:38 PM	#1
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	Questions about the Bible and homosexuality I'm writing a letter to the editor about the f**&&#%@& gay marriage ban, and I wanted to make the following statements in that letter: 1) The mainstream Jewish faith is not as condemning of homosexuals as the Christian religion is, despite having the same old testament. 2) Jesus never condemned homosexuality or even mentioned it in the 4 gospels. Are these true statements? Any help would be appreciated. Perhaps I'll post a draft of my letter here later. Basically here will be the gist of it: The first part will be describing why the Bible is not a good source for modern marriage laws. Then I"ll list some examples of horrible marriages in the OT like Deut 22 ordering rapists to marry their victims. The second part will be more general - saying that 1) Jesus himself in the 4 gospels didn't devote any time to the issue and 2) Jews who only have the OT don't either. Thanks a bunch for all your help!! scigirl

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12-22-2003, 01:07 AM	#3
Jackalope Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Hayward, CA, USA Posts: 1,675	Romans 1:21-23 describes breaking the ban on graven images. In other words, there are sculptures in the temple that are representational. He's most likely fulminating about pagan worshop of idols, though there is evidence of representational art even in the temple at Jerusalem. So Paul is frothing at the mouth that because these folk worshipped idols (or put up statues for all we know), God gave them over to sinful desires as punishment.

12-22-2003, 12:15 PM	#4
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	Thanks for the info guys! scigirl

12-22-2003, 12:59 PM	#5
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Do a search here, I posted a few times a long explanation from a JBL article that the Leviticus codes do not forbid homosexuality but a "position." As it should be in the holiday season, it is better to give than receive. . . . --J.D.

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