Vivisector

Mk 7:31 in the KJV/NKJV might be another candidate (Tyre/Sidon/Sea of Galilee/Decapolis).

stephan huller

It is worth noting that Philo's LXX (the true LXX as opposed to the bullshit that is promoted as 'the LXX' and is instead a much later Christian text) there is a consistent substitution of theos for kurios in place which read only kurios in our text. Philo also seems to substitute despotes for Adonai and given his interest in distinguishing kurios as a lower hypostasis (essentially paired with theos and representing the power of judgment as opposed to mercy) I wouldn't be at all surprised if despotes is in fact the title of God Almighty (as opposed again to kurios which is a subordinate divinity).

avi

Thank you Stephan, much appreciated.....

umm, if it is not too inconvenient, at your leisure, can you furnish a link to Philo's LXX?

I would love to be able to read other passages from his version of LXX...(i.e. before the christians started mucking about with the text...)

I plead total ignorance here. I just cannot fathom a religious jew of any era, equating human anything with yahweh. Maybe my problem is that I am so completely ignorant of all things hebrew, that I simply cannot appreciate the nuances of judaism....

From my narrow minded, bigoted, ignorant point of view, the Jews of ancient times, up to the present day, regard yahweh as the supreme deity, and not even comparable, in any fashion, with humans, or human activities, for example, slave owning. Such a rigid, narrow definition may be wholly inadequate, and I await correction by the many many scholars of this forum to correct me!! haha.

The topic of this thread, as I understand it, is to identify those translations, which deviate from the ideal. How does one define "ideal"?
Accurate,
complete,
honest,
uncontaminated by contemporary thought.

That would be my point of view. spin obviously has a different perspective, as is his right...

According to my notion of what an "ideal" translation should embody, the idea of translating yahweh as "lord" is completely wrong, because, "lord" is a designation employed for humans (and gods, by some folks, especially uneducated people), whereas, on the contrary, "god", i.e. "theos" in greek, is the nominally correct translation of yahweh, not lord, aka kyrios, or adonai.

In defense of my point of view, I have cited several biblical passages, found in texts published within the previous three or four years, which indeed translate yahweh as "jehovah", or "yahweh", NOT kyrios or "lord".

In my opinion, we have not given sufficient weight to the problem of Lord Constantine.

In particular, I do not believe that we have considered how he would have viewed himself:
a. as a god to be obeyed by all other humans;
b. as the Roman emperor supreme (having conquered all the other "emperors", owed obeisance from all living humans;
c. as the "thirteenth apostle";
d. as the nominal head of the Christian church, though not recognized as such by subsequent generations of leaders, after his death. Would Nicea have taken place, without his explicit approval/funding?

I attribute the distortions in LXX to him, or to his minion, Eusebius. I certainly do not accept the proposition that "kyrios", the title of Constantine, is appropriate for yahweh, much as Constantine himself, were he still alive, today, might disagree with me...

avi

avi

Did you read post #8?

avi

Vivisector

Hi Avi,

Great catch - I'm getting to the point where I've forgotten what I've read (because I remember your argument for it now).

Cheers,

V.

spin

I think that's a tendentious translation, when the term δεσποτης indicates 1) master of the house, 2) absolute ruler, 3) Roman emperors, and generally master, lord, owner. The seven against Thebes were called δεσποτων.

The DSS show that adonai was a later substitute for yhwh. That should still be the case for the Vorlage of the text that Philo had.

OK, noting avi's prior presentation of it.

[hr=1]100[/hr]

1. Gen 1:1,
   In the beginning god created... (forcing creation from nothing)
   In the beginning when god created... or ... of god's creating...
   
   
2. Deu 32:8,
   sons of Israel, (hiding polytheism)
   sons of El
   
   
3. Ps. 22:16,
   "pierced", (faking prophecy)
   
   
4. Is. 7:14,
   "virgin", (faking prophecy)
   "young woman"
   
   
5. Jer. 7:22,
   "I did not just give them commands", (hiding contradiction, NIV)
   "I did not give them commands"
   
   
6. Dan 9:25,
   "seven weeks (sevens) and sixty-two weeks (sevens);...",
       (allowing the 7 & 62 to be added together, separating
       the 62 from what follows) (faking prophecy)
   "seven weeks (sevens); and sixty-two weeks (sevens)..."
   
   
7. Mk 1:2
   written in the prophets,
       (attempt to hide misattribution of citation in 1:2b, KJV tradition)
   written in Isaiah
   
   
8. Mk 1:24
   Jesus of Nazareth,
       (erroneously converting strange word into a recognizable one)
   Jesus the Nazarene
   
   
9. Mk 7:31
   "went from the borders of Tyre and Sidon" or
       "went from the borders of Tyre to Sidon",
       (hiding geographical problem)
   "went from the borders of Tyre through Sidon"
   
   
10. Rev 1:13 and 14:14,
    like the son of man, (making christian messianic title)
    like a son of man

Vivisector

Not sure it's as clear-cut as you'd like, depending as it does on a "C" variant, but there's always John 7:8, where the key Greek word is taken from the accepted Greek text in the NIV, but from the variant in the KJV/NKJV

Cheers,

V.

Vivisector

And if you like the last, you might also like Mk 5:1 (Gerasenes vs. Gadarenes). NIV=Greek text, KJV/NKJV=variant ("C").

stephan huller

I acknowledge the other meanings of despotes but in the case of Israel God is the slave owner hence the Marcionite and early Christian interest in apolytrosis

DCHindley

That is only one of the translations that fall within that word's semantic range. I think it basically means "sole master". Wasn't it Julius Africanus who called the individual members of Jesus' extended family "little despots"? I don't think he meant it in a bad sense, or in the sense of "little slave owners". He may have meant it in the sense of "heads of households/family units".

DCH