Pilate

Thank you for the help. If you know the exact English words, as used by Philo, I can search and find them in my computer. (I can search for prophetic). Unfortunately I don't have the Greek text of Philo in a CD to search it.
I have located "συγκληÏ?ονόμος" Paul uses it in Romans 8:17 and Philo uses it, On the Embassy to Gaius, Ch. X, (66).
Thanks Andrew

spin

What is necessary to do anything useful is the Greek text. Andrew, where are you getting your information?


spin

Pilate

Andrew,
I found these words in Thayer's Dictionary with the citations to Philo's works. But what kind of test can you run to determine whether or not these words were used by other writers before Philo? Do you have a software program to do this?

andrewcriddle

My source was Thayer's list of NT words found first (among non-Biblical writers) in Philo ignoring a few cases where the idea of Philo being Paul's source seems prima-facie unlikely.

Thayer is obviuosly out-of-date in terms of papyri and inscriptions but from my (limited) access to more recent material the main change here seems to be that SUGKLHRONOMOS fellow-heir is found in Inscriptions of the Imperial period in several places, which although IIUC not earlier than Philo are almost certainly quite independent of him.

Hence I (now) doubt if fellow-heir in the NT is plausibly derived from Philo.

The other issue is that APhThARSIA incorruption and ThEIOTHS divine nature are also found in the Wisdom of Solomon which may well be a more ilkely source for Paul than Philo.

(NOTE 1: If you accept a/ that Paul used the Wisdom of Solomon and that b/ the references to Images of Foreign Rulers in that work implies a date after the victory of Ocatavius/Augustus over Anthony and Cleopatra then this implies a date for Paul's work no earlier than the very end of the 1st century BCE.)

(NOTE 2: hIEROURGEW to perform priestly service is found in 4 Maccabees as well as Philo but a/ 4 Maccabees is probably roughly contemporary with Philo b/ IMO it is unlikely that Paul knew of it although the author of Hebrews probably did.)

(NOTE 3: IIUC there is an (expensive) CD-Rom which allows among other things searching for the earliest use of a Greek word. Again IIUC Peter Kirby has more information.)

Andrew Criddle

Pilate

I, too, have screened those words (of the Hellenistic era) at the end of Thayer's Dictionary, and I came to similar conclusions. We need some software to screen those words, to see if anyone else has used them before Philo.
As to Philo being Paul's source, go to:
http://www.jesushistory.info/philo_o...oundations.htm
and scroll down to : How Philo Inspired Paul.


Are you saying that those inscriptions were available to Paul? And therefore, Paul got that word from those inscriptions?

That sounds right. Concerning the date of Wisdom of Solomon, here is a quotation from Andrew Benson's book, The Origins of Christianity and the Bible:
"Wisdom of Solomon was written in Greek by an unknown Hellenist Jew probably at Alexandria (the home of Philo of Alexandria and Aristobulus of Alexandria ). It contains about 35 Greek words or combinations of words, which appear for the first time in 1st century secular Greek literature. Such words are a clue for dating of this book. It also contains allusions to persecutions of Jews, probably the Alexandrian Jews, who were persecuted during the reign of Caligula (37-41 CE). These clues and the passage listed below suggest a date of writing after 38 CE (that is, a few years after the death of Jesus, and during the time that Philo of Alexandria was prominent). The following passage of Wisdom of Solomon alludes to the persecution and crucifixion of Jesus by the Sadducees:" See Wisdom of Solomon 2:1-21.


Wisdom of Solomon was probably written in the times of Paul. The writer of Wisdom of Solomon was probably influenced by Philo. And, some evidence points to Wisdom of Solomon influencing Paul. In about half a dozen of his verses Paul uses similar expressions and concepts as Wisdom of Solomon.
Are you saying that Paul wrote at about the time of Jesus' birth? If so, what evidence do you have?

4 Maccabees was written sometime around 20 to 54 CE (perhaps during the reign of Caligula: 37-41 CE).
What did you find in Hebrews that came from 4 Maccabees?

I have asked Peter about such software, but he did not respond. Perhaps, he is on vacation. Perhaps he will respond when he comes back.

Andrew Criddle[/QUOTE]

S.C.Carlson

I've got access to TLG. A quick look up of these words indicate the first non-fragmentary writer is:

APhThARSIA incorruption -- Epicurus, 4-3rd cen. BCE

ThEIOTHS divine nature - Letter of Aristeas, Wisdom, Philo (all contemporary?)

hIEROURGEW to perform priestly service - Philo

KATOPTRIZOMAI to behold oneself in a mirror - Philo

PROEUAGGELIZOMAI to proclaim good news beforehand - Philo

PROPhHTIKOS prophetic - Philo

SUGKLHRONOMOS fellow-heir - LXX Sirach and Philo

ChARISMA gift of (divine) grace - Philo and Sibylline Oracle (undatable)?

Stephen

* By non-fragmentary, I am excluding later paraphrases of a lost earlier author.

Peter Kirby

[/QUOTE]
Actually I did respond. I use the Thesaurus Lingua Graecae database and the Diogenes software. I also use Logos for the Bible.

kind thoughts,
Peter Kirby

spin

It depends on which oracle. There are good indications within them of historical data providing ad quem datings. Most are post-Philonian.


spin

S.C.Carlson

I had begun a long response to your earlier message which got lost when my machine decided to reboot itself.

I think that we were to a large degree talking past each other because I was mainly interested in what was the earliest possible date, and it is more apparent to me now that you are wondering about the possibilities of second century interpolation. It is here where my approach broke down, because evidence for the earliest possible date is almost always consistent with later dates.

I think we disagree about the adequacy or clarity of our sources here (both Paul and Josephus).

To be a much later writing, I suppose it must be more than just getting some details wrong, because even contemporaries get things wrong. It would have to be an error that is so incorrect that it is very unlikely that a contemporary got it wrong. This puts back to the adequacy and clarity of 2 Cor 11:32 and Josephus.

Another issue is the supposition of the passage being written in the second century. Is there independent evidence corroborating this, or it is merely way a proposal to deal with the distance between Paul and Josephus.

Focusing on the dating issue (see title of this thread), this is just as good as case no. 1 for dating Paul's letter. It is, of course, less valuable for what was really going on in Damascus.

Also, the viability of the metaphor scenario has a bearing on the issue of whether the reference is so incorrect that it is very unlikely that a contemporary got it wrong.

The use of the first person is a claim that it happened to the writer. For dating purposes, the claim does not been to be accurate, only plausible. The implied first century setting of the letter (whether it was by the real Paul or by a second century interpolator) more naturally calls to mind Aretas IV, not III, and puts back to the issue in no. 1.

Stephen

Toto

That may be why I have some trouble following this.

Are you looking for some indication of when the writer wants you to think that the letter was written, or some actual indication of when it was written?

I was not able to download the article that you referenced, even after reinstalling Acrobat 6.0

Paul's letters appear in history about the time of Marcion, around 140 CE, wiht no clear evidence of when they were written. I don't know what you mean by the distance between Paul and Josephus.

I would not use a presumed mistake like this to prove that the letter was written in the second century. But it is consistent with the letter being written in the second century.

A metaphor would make this section of very little use for dating the letter, just as a reference to George Bush as King George does not provide a clear historical reference.

Where is there an implication of a first century dating of this letter?